Root versus Tonic Center verus ???

[honestjohnny]

I'm curious after reading several posts/threads about whether bass should play the root or not, when they should, etc. I thought bass players always played the root (excepting passing tones). I mean if the guitar is playing a Fmajor chord in first position, but I play a C isn't that the root? C is the lowest note in the orchestral chord. It's an inversion, sure, but also the root, right? I mean there's the chord that the guitarist/keyboardist plays and then the orchestral chord which is the grouping of tones that the ensemble/band plays together.

[greenboy]

hj,

I really recommend a well-versed teacher to help you put all the puzzle pieces together. Or some books - or both!

[cnltb]

Originally Posted by honestjohnny

I'm curious after reading several posts/threads about whether bass should play the root or not, when they should, etc. I thought bass players always played the root (excepting passing tones). I mean if the guitar is playing a Fmajor chord in first position, but I play a C isn't that the root? C is the lowest note in the orchestral chord. It's an inversion, sure, but also the root, right? I mean there's the chord that the guitarist/keyboardist plays and then the orchestral chord which is the grouping of tones that the ensemble/band plays together.

The root note is the note on which the chord is built, as seen in the context of a given scale.
It is the note which the chord is named after.
It does not necessarily have to lie on the bottom .
C is the 5th in the key of F, meaning that it lies on the 5th step of the F major( ionian) scale-FGAbCDEF

[JWClark(ABD)]

If I'm understanding you correctly (and I'd like to think I am), you seem to be confusing bass and root. I'm not sure what you mean by an orchestral chord, but if the guitar is playing an F major chord and you play the C below it (meaning your pitch is lower than the lowest pitch of the guitar), than F is still the root, but the bass is C. In theoretical terms, the overall sonority, which I think is what you're calling the orchestral chord, is a second inversion F major triad, meaning the fifth is in the bass. Roots don't change when the inversion or bass position changes.
However, playing something that isn't part of the triad your hypothetical guitarist is playing can change what the chord sounds like. That same F triad, with a D in the bass will sound together like a D minor seventh chord. A B-flat in the bass can make it sound like a major 9th chord, and so on.
Hope that explains something.

[Swift713]

Yeah, get a good teacher and/or a book. Piston's Harmony was popular when I was in school.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by honestjohnny

I'm curious after reading several posts/threads about whether bass should play the root or not, when they should, etc. I thought bass players always played the root (excepting passing tones). I mean if the guitar is playing a Fmajor chord in first position, but I play a C isn't that the root?

No the root of F major is F, the C is the 5th or the dominant to give it its technical name, of F major, thats why i if in first postion F major you follow the C under the chord, the F under that will resolve it. You are getting in to this without it seems having learned the relevent knowledge you need to support what your trying to understand.

For reference the root and the tonic are not always the same, as the tonic is the first or lowest note in a chord or arpeggio (3 note chord) with in a key signature. For example in the classic song, Blowin' Free by Wishbone Ash the intro is D that is the root, but the Chords (or arpeggios) the tonic for each one is D, C, and A. If you tried to follow the roots of those chords(arpeggios) it would work but not a good as it does just playing the root which is D.

Cheek it out http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EeY9IRnVmk8

[Fergie Fulton]

just found another example and like the other post say find a good teacher, you'll not regret it.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lQoM9O0c-h8

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by honestjohnny

It's an inversion, sure, but also the root, right?

No. An inversion, by definition, means that the lowest note in the chord is NOT the root. That's what the very process of "inverting" the chord consists of. 1st inversion = 3rd is the lowest note; 2nd inversion = 5th is the lowest note; 3rd inversion (for 7th chords) = 7th is the lowest note.

[honestjohnny]

In theoretical terms, the overall sonority, which I think is what you're calling the orchestral chord, is a second inversion F major triad, meaning the fifth is in the bass...That same F triad, with a D in the bass will sound together like a D minor seventh chord.

Your iexample illustrates my point better. The chord name has changed to Dm7, the bass is playing the root. I was referring to overall sonority, but I've always had trouble with nomenclature, which is probably the root of my problem

[honestjohnny]

With the aid of Google:

A chord's root is determined by which note establishes the chord's relationship to the tonic and not which is in the bass, or the lowest played note. The tonic is the pitch by which all other pitches in a piece is hierarchically referrenced.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by honestjohnny

With the aid of Google:

A chord's root is determined by which note establishes the chord's relationship to the tonic and not which is in the bass, or the lowest played note. The tonic is the pitch by which all other pitches in a piece is hierarchically referrenced.

Do you understand what this means and its implication to the music it's applied? Can you find or show and example of this?

Like i said earlier, it seems you don't have the relevent knowledge to understand these ideas purely on the question raised in your original post. I am not saying that you should not ask these questions and look for answers, but try and gather your information in the correct order so you understand ideas that come later.

Its almost like your trying to land the plane before you have learned to fly the thing.

[EADG mx]

When writing music and improvising a lot of taste is involved. You can't learn that from a book, and there's only so much you can learn from a teacher. Your ears will always be the best judge as to what you like, and personally I find that roots are usually what I want. People seem to belittle bassists who use root notes excessively but that doesn't bother me. Playing roots is popular because it works and it sounds good. And that's not to say you can't experiment with inversions (and there are many applications where they can sound great), but the root is always a good starting point.

[chimpbass]

From the title of this thread, I was really hoping this would be a question about symmetrical harmonies and scales revolving around a tonal center rather than using traditional descending fifth tonality to establish tension and resolution.

Color me disappointed.

The easiest way to determine the root of a chord (other than looking at the name...the root of Fmaj is "F", Cmaj is "C" and so on) is to stack the chord in 3rds, then look at the note that ends up on bottom.

Say you have a chord with the following notes: E, D, B, C, G. The only way to stack this set of notes in thirds is C-E-G-B-D. C, therefore, is the root of this chord. This rule gets a little muddled occasionally (add6 chords for example...or if a note that is in the chord isn't played), but it almost always works.

Also, what everyone else said. Get a teacher...it's worth it!

[honestjohnny]

If I understand correctly, the tonic is the note for which the scale is named. So C for C major or A in A minor, even though both contain the same notes (relative major and minor). The root is the note for which the chord is named, often the lowest played note, but not necessarily so, as in the case of inversions, which use one of the other notes in the triad as the lowest note played though the chord is still technically named the same (see my original post example). Where I was confused was with examples like the one Mr. Fulton gives where the bass plays a particular note (D) and the other instruments play (collectively) a chord with a different low note (though not the lowest, which is being played by the bass). In this case, F major, which causes the overall sonority of the 4 note chord (tone cluster, whatever) to be Dm7. Although, now I see that that Dm7 could be inverted and still be Dm7 if the bass were playing an A and the rest of the ensemble were playing a DFC in some fashion.

Teacher: I've had several. I have trouble with some concepts. Sue me. I'm a solid C student in this stuff. Also, it's a hobby.

Books: Got those, too. And the Internet, so no lack of resources.

For those of you who can't bring yourselves to descend to the lower levels of instruction, go teach your graduate theory classes at Berkley or Julliard or where-ever and stop posting repetitively/redundantly on my thread. Shame on you for not sharing your knowledge.

To those who were kind enough to explain things to me, thank you. Teaching via the Internet is still teaching. The only way I'll ever get better is to ask questions and have more knowledgeable people answer, not blow me off.

[greenboy]

Shame on you for not sharing your knowledge.

That's a crap attitude to take since anyone who does help you actually had to type something that's probably been typed a gazillion times before. So why not respect that some people do not want to type what's already laid down better in books, etc. Nobody OWES you anything.

Frankly I only go in depth on subjects that are currently firing ME up... Anybody who makes it a duty to be Mr Instructor about everything is gonna be one abused puppy in no time. And I've already paid my dues in forums.

Sure, if someone looks tangled I might feel a little sorry for them and hope they get help. But mainly I feel sorry for them because they are asking on forums instead of heading for better sources ; }

[honestjohnny]

Originally Posted by greenboy

That's a crap attitude to take since anyone who does help you actually had to type something that's probably been typed a gazillion times before. So why not respect that some people do not want to type what's already laid down better in books, etc. Nobody OWES you anything.

Frankly I only go in depth on subjects that are currently firing ME up... Anybody who makes it a duty to be Mr Instructor about everything is gonna be one abused puppy in no time. And I've already paid my dues in forums.

Sure, if someone looks tangled I might feel a little sorry for them and hope they get help. But mainly I feel sorry for them because they are asking on forums instead of heading for better sources ; }

So over in the Amps forum, why not just say, "Get a Physics Degree?" Also, I don't feel entitled, but YOU took the time to read the question. You could have left it alone and someone more willing would have helped (as they did). Playing the martyr card will get you very little sympathy from me. You always have a choice.

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by honestjohnny

So over in the Amps forum, why not just say, "Get a Physics Degree?"

Did you notice the "if I am fired up" part above? If at that moment pontificating interests me or I feel the person really isn't going to get something I Know from elsewhere, I'll go for it. OTOH, I can't forstall the rising tide of people who think it takes 30 feet for a low B waveform to develop. For every 30 of them, there's only a few guys who actually can give a good answer and we all hate typing in depth over and over and over. The futility - the futility! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

Also, I don't feel entitled, but YOU took the time to read the question. You could have left it alone and someone more willing would have helped (as they did).

I gave you what I believe is the BEST ANSWER. THe way the question was posed and the nature of the question leads me to believe that you would best be served by a strong mentor or teacher, or some really good and engrossing books.

[honestjohnny]

Originally Posted by greenboy

Did you notice the "if I am fired up" part above? If at that moment pontificating interests me or I feel the person really isn't going to get something I Know from elsewhere, I'll go for it. OTOH, I can't forstall the rising tide of people who think it takes 30 feet for a low B waveform to develop. For every 30 of them, there's only a few guys who actually can give a good answer and we all hate typing in depth over and over and over. The futility - the futility! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !



I gave you what I believe is the BEST ANSWER. THe way the question was posed and the nature of the question leads me to believe that you would best be served by a strong mentor or teacher, or some really good and engrossing books.

That's fair. And really I wasn't attacking you personally with that statement. Yours was actually the first suggestion to get a book. I was talking to those who continued to make the suggestion. Get a book, got it, thanks. No need for repeats. And I must say I really have appreciated your posts in AMPS. They've led me to the best amp I've ever had (LSx 1503A and el cheapo preamp), rather than wasting a lot of time and money on other things. Which BTW, my band has given me great feedback on my sound now. Thanks again. Sincerely.

As I said, I've had teachers, but like anything else, sometimes it takes several people to make the light blub come on, and I was hoping that the TBers who are more knowledgeable could help shed some light. I think I've got it now, or at least a better grasp than I did before. So thanks to everyone who helped. This stuff is really hard for me and I've been "flying" for along time, without really knowing what I was doing. So now I'm trying to go back and, if I may mix metaphors, put the foundation down, after the house has already been built.
Thanks again everyone for being helpful. TB really is a great resource.

[vinny]

Would anyone care to post book titles at a couple of different levels so anyone could check them out without getting into more threads like this? No disrespect intended, it may help.