Rules?

[4 stringed fury]

I have been think about this one little subject for quite a while. I am just going to maybe vent of a little and maybe get your opinions on it.

I have been taking lessons for about 5 and a half months now and been on this site for a while. Form what I can see everyone here is very theory strong for the most part. What I mean by that is when people are asking for advice others always bring up theory, "you should learn theory or etc..." Which is fine with me but...

Well, I was at Starbucks with my Sister and her boyfriend. My sisters boyfriend is an amazing musician and he can play practically everyone out there (no joke). The thing is that he never took lessons and was a watch and learn, use your ear, and experiment kind of guy.

I was talking to him about my instructor and how thing are going with my progress and he told me this, " there are people who are musicians and people who LEARN to play instruments." So he told me that people who learn who to play learn all the rules and stuff but aren't really musicians by heart they just know how to play things but have no creativity beyond that, for example, one of the songs he plays has made up timing and has other things that instructors wouldn't teach you because it's not the "way things work" but his stuff sounded amazing and he has a CD coming out real soon.

Like I have stated I am current;y with an instructor but I am starting to realize what he said about how rules limit creativity. But I am also being feed all the rules and I don't know which one to believe. I will still most likely take lessons due to the fact I know more about basses then actual playing but I am still trying to decide If I should bother trying to learn theory in the future.

4SF

[RAZubieta]

Put it this way theory is a great tool to writing or playing music, but it should be thought of a guidline rather than rules. You can change them or break them whenever you see fit whatever sounds best.

[Dogbertday]

Theory isn't about rules... i bet your teacher could listen to your friend's recording and figure out what he's doing with timing and scales and explain it with theory... that's what ti's there for.. Play the music you hear in your head and explain it with your knowledge of theory.. don't play something just because you arbitrarily are picking to put a chord inverted or something...

in short.. theory is a tool to explain the music we write... not the other way around..

it's a language, not dogma

[Dogbertday]

oh yeah... also a solid knowledge of theory will help you be able to act like you know what you're doing at the times when you'll have no idea... like when you're first asked you read chord charts... you'll be able to play something other than roots on sight

[Deacon_Blues]

+1 to Dogbertday, especially this line:

"theory is a tool to explain the music we write... not the other way around"

However, you might learn a lot of interesting stuff once you get a bit more in-depth theory knowledge, things you most likely never would invent on your own just by doodling on your bass, guitar, piano or whatever.

I have never let my limited but still IMO at least decent theory knowledge be in the way for me, the real music comes always first. If I play something new that sounds interesting, I might try to analyze it and usually there's a way to explain it in theoretical terms, but I don't let the theory tell me what's "right or wrong". That's totally up to my ears to decide.

[Jazzdogg]

I don't view intrinsic musical ability and knowledge of theory as a mutually exclusive; life is mostly multiple choice, not true/false.

We all know artists whose amazing God-given abilities enable them to create masterpieces without apparent struggle or effort, and people who have mastered basic musical skills and understand music theory, but whose innate skills are very limited: these are only two data points, not the whole picture.

For every creative genius there are countless functional technicians who, while competent players, seem to lack the spark of musical genius. But there are also a great many musicians who skillfully blend extraordinary talent with astounding intellectual understanding of their craft, and intuitive artists without so-called academic skills.

[ryco]

Not Rules.

Music theory isn't about "rules". It's about labeling. It's about explaining why music sounds as it does. Or it's about defining Harmony.

There are guidelines in theory because ppl have been writing and playing this stuff for years and have discovered some things consistently don't work/sound well. Admittedly, a lot of theory is about voice leading in writing harmony parts which most guitarists/bassists don't even think about.

As far as knowing theory is concerned: who would be faster at learning. Would a person who knows theory be able to pick up your friends music, or could your friend pick up another person's music. Which one could then relay that knowledge on to someone else? I dunno -- just asking

But most ppl I have worked with don't know anything about theory and are amazing player/writers. You don't have to know this stuff - you'd be in the minority if you did. I don't have hardly any friends I can sit down and bounce ideas about theory off of. That's why I like coming to this forum on TB.

Theory didn't squash my writing and creativity. It gave me all kinds of new pathways to explore and think about. I played for years not knowing much theory and it came to a point where I wanted to know why certain chords and devices sounded and worked as they did.

[D.Don]

Originally Posted by 4 stringed fury

I have been think about this one little subject for quite a while. I am just going to maybe vent of a little and maybe get your opinions on it.

I have been taking lessons for about 5 and a half months now and been on this site for a while. Form what I can see everyone here is very theory strong for the most part. What I mean by that is when people are asking for advice others always bring up theory, "you should learn theory or etc..." Which is fine with me but...

Well, I was at Starbucks with my Sister and her boyfriend. My sisters boyfriend is an amazing musician and he can play practically everyone out there (no joke). The thing is that he never took lessons and was a watch and learn, use your ear, and experiment kind of guy.

I was talking to him about my instructor and how thing are going with my progress and he told me this, " there are people who are musicians and people who LEARN to play instruments." So he told me that people who learn who to play learn all the rules and stuff but aren't really musicians by heart they just know how to play things but have no creativity beyond that, for example, one of the songs he plays has made up timing and has other things that instructors wouldn't teach you because it's not the "way things work" but his stuff sounded amazing and he has a CD coming out real soon.

Like I have stated I am current;y with an instructor but I am starting to realize what he said about how rules limit creativity. But I am also being feed all the rules and I don't know which one to believe. I will still most likely take lessons due to the fact I know more about basses then actual playing but I am still trying to decide If I should bother trying to learn theory in the future.

4SF

Here we go again ...

hehe.

He's right, some of us just have it and can play without even thinking about where it came from and how it works, though it's of course not bad to learn theory anyways, learning is never wrong, but if you "have it" you'll get along pretty well without the theory ...

D.Don

[tomvelsor]

id love to hear his song with "things they dont teach you" in it. i'll gladly teach you exactly what it is...

how does he know whats taught and what isint, if hes never studied with anyone. if you have a good teacher youd understand that its not about rules. its guidelines. if your soloing minor over dominant, it (often) sounds fine. thats not breaking a rule. but in order to do this, you need to know your modes, and understand chords, ext ext.

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by 4 stringed fury

So he told me that people who learn who to play learn all the rules and stuff but aren't really musicians by heart they just know how to play things but have no creativity beyond that, for example, one of the songs he plays has made up timing and has other things that instructors wouldn't teach you because it's not the "way things work" but his stuff sounded amazing and he has a CD coming out real soon.

Who says instructors wouldn't teach you that? Some guy who never actually received instruction and is looking to justify that decision? When his CD comes out, ask your teacher to help you learn a song from it. I bet you your teacher will not only be happy to do so, but will use you-know-what* to explain it to you. Your instructor is choosing to teach you what they think will be most valuable to you in the future, and if you're not specifically asking for something different, can you blame them?

The bottom line is that to be a well-rounded player there's a whole lot of stuff to know and the ability to use "made up timing" (whatever that might be) will not see you through two measures in most styles of music. Your teacher is teaching you things that will be valuable in any sort of music (when applied wisely), and to explain them your teacher is using theory—you can't explain anything without the vocabulary to describe it.

* Theory

[steve66]

Originally Posted by 4 stringed fury

I have been think about this one little subject for quite a while. I am just going to maybe vent of a little and maybe get your opinions on it.

I have been taking lessons for about 5 and a half months now and been on this site for a while. Form what I can see everyone here is very theory strong for the most part. What I mean by that is when people are asking for advice others always bring up theory, "you should learn theory or etc..." Which is fine with me but...

Well, I was at Starbucks with my Sister and her boyfriend. My sisters boyfriend is an amazing musician and he can play practically everyone out there (no joke). The thing is that he never took lessons and was a watch and learn, use your ear, and experiment kind of guy.

I was talking to him about my instructor and how thing are going with my progress and he told me this, " there are people who are musicians and people who LEARN to play instruments." So he told me that people who learn who to play learn all the rules and stuff but aren't really musicians by heart they just know how to play things but have no creativity beyond that, for example, one of the songs he plays has made up timing and has other things that instructors wouldn't teach you because it's not the "way things work" but his stuff sounded amazing and he has a CD coming out real soon.

Like I have stated I am current;y with an instructor but I am starting to realize what he said about how rules limit creativity. But I am also being feed all the rules and I don't know which one to believe. I will still most likely take lessons due to the fact I know more about basses then actual playing but I am still trying to decide If I should bother trying to learn theory in the future.

4SF

Dont get hung up on how learning theory will kill your creativity. First learn your theory, continue studying with you teacher. Learn to read notation. Play with other people, learn songs by ear. Apply the theory. This will all make sense soon.

[HaVIC5]

in short.. theory is a tool to explain the music we write... not the other way around..

Unless you're schoenberg.

[emblymouse]

If you don't have the ear than the mechanics will only get you so far. Become an expert listener! A well read person is usually a well spoken person too. You don't need anyone else's instruction to be well read.

[4 stringed fury]

Originally Posted by lemur821

Who says instructors wouldn't teach you that?

We both do because my instructor won't let go off the beaten path.

[Beast]

Think about it, some people are able to pick up a language without learning one bit of "formal grammar"; they just pick it up by ear, and piece together what sounds right and what doesn't.

Theory is the "formal grammar" of music.

Has grammar ever put a limit on the creativity of people using the English language? Absolutely not. Same applies to music.

Also, I do not agree with the statement that some people are born musicians, and others just learn using rules. I've found that natural talent means poop in music, and those who are the best musicians AND most musical, are those who practice and immerse themselves most in music.

[Dogbertday]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Unless you're schoenberg.

shoenberg was using theory as a tool to try and open up music and make sounds that hadn't been heard before. He felt the rules of tonality were constricting... (tonality obviously being different from music theory as a whole.. for those who may not know)

HOWEVER; though what he did wasn't comprehended right away, more music theory was created to explain what he did. even if he created it.

[4 stringed fury]

Originally Posted by Beast

Think about it, some people are able to pick up a language without learning one bit of "formal grammar"; they just pick it up by ear, and piece together what sounds right and what doesn't.

Theory is the "formal grammar" of music.

Has grammar ever put a limit on the creativity of people using the English language? Absolutely not. Same applies to music.

Also, I do not agree with the statement that some people are born musicians, and others just learn using rules. I've found that natural talent means poop in music, and those who are the best musicians AND most musical, are those who practice and immerse themselves most in music.

Amazing Anology!

[Roadman]

I've heard lots of self taught guys rail against theory and formal training. I always wondered how they know it's so bad if they have never studied it????

On the other hand, I know countless well studied and wonderful musicians, and not once have any of them complained to me that they lost their creativity.

Hmmmmm, what do ya think?

[DocBop]

When people believe in boundaries, they become part of them. -Don Cherry

Replace the word boundaries with rules and you have the box you've put yourself in.

They aren't Rules unless you make them rules. They are labels for musical things so musicians can communicate with each other. So the can analyze music they like to understand what's was going on and create their own ideas from it. Theory is also a source of new ideas new to you to experiment with. So its all in how you look at it. If you think of theory as rules and don't experiment if your own voice then you made created a boundary for yourself.

Then players that say they do everything on their own is a crock. They are doing the same things but are reinventing the wheel to create their own labels for things. They are having to make the same conclusion that musicians decades before them made and documented.

[ErebusBass]

Originally Posted by Roadman

I've heard lots of self taught guys rail against theory and formal training. I always wondered how they know it's so bad if they have never studied it????

On the other hand, I know countless well studied and wonderful musicians, and not once have any of them complained to me that they lost their creativity.

Hmmmmm, what do ya think?

They probably tried it... Once. It probably made their head hurt. It made my head hurt the first time too. But I tried again. It's a process.

How can you play outside of the box if you don't know where the box is?