S.Devines Static Dominant Chords

[monroe55]

I read some tuttorials on Scott Devine's website and learned a ton of info. I recommend scottsbasslessons.com to all.
I read a section on soloing over static minor chords and learned some useful substitutions and how to imply a 2-5-1 over the static minor chord. For example, while playing over a static D minor chord you can imply a 2-5-1 by using D dorian into an Em7flat5 into an A-dominant-flat9 and back to the D. However, I wasnt sure where these 2-5 chords were drawn from in this static minor exercise. Why was a m7flat5 used for implying a 2chord and an A dominant for the 5th of this Dminor chord? Isn't the 5th of a Dminor chord an A minor? Im a lil confused, but not much.

My main question involves soloing over "static dominant"chords. I know Scott is planning a tuttorial on this but I cant wait for it. I think Scott is too busy gigging and riding his bicycle all over England. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to elaborate on these dominant chord vamps, perhaps along the same line as Scott's static minor tuttorial? Can you imply 2-5-1s? Are there any substitutions to use? Any suggestions would be appreciated while we wait for Scott to put together his next masterpiece tuttorial..
Thanks again for everything else you did Scott, sorry if I come across as impatient, I just am.

[Chrispurchase]

Think of it in terms of Harmonic minor scale for a minor ii-v-i. You can also use Jazz Minor/Melodic minor & it's modes but perhaps master Harmonic minor first.

It pretty much the same as using the major scale and it's modes

so in the the key of D Minor:

Em7b5 is the ii chord so play a D harmonic minor scale starting on a the E.
The A7b9 is the Vb9 chord so again think D harmonic minor starting on the A
D is the one chord so just play the D harmonic minor scale.

[monroe55]

Thanks. I figured it had something to do with the Harmonic/Melodic minor modes.

Harmonic minor=1, 2, flat3, 4, 5, flt6 , maj7, 8.
Melodic=1, 2, flt3, 4, 5, 6, maj7, 8.
Correct?

I just got confused when the Dminor chord was associated with Dorian scales in the tuttorial I referred to. D-dorian tells me we're in C so going to an Em7flat5 confused me.

So, if you can imply a 2-5-1 against a minor chord vamp can you imply a 2-5-1 over a static dominant vamp? How?

[Chrispurchase]

Originally Posted by monroe55

Harmonic minor=1, 2, flat3, 4, 5, flt6 , maj7, 8.
Melodic=1, 2, flt3, 4, 5, 6, maj7, 8.
Correct?

Yip thats right.

Originally Posted by monroe55

So, if you can imply a 2-5-1 against a minor chord vamp can you imply a 2-5-1 over a static dominant vamp? How?

When you're soloing you can imply what ever you want.

[monroe55]

Lol.
Yeah I know. Im just trying to learn how to imply something tasteful.

[onlyclave]

If you have a static dominant chord you can play whatever you want and it's not "wrong". It simply becomes an alteration.

in Cmi the V7b9 chord is G B D F Ab. It's very common to alter the 9ths and the 5ths on the V in a minor tonality. In the Real Book you'll see V7(alt) and that means V7 (b9/+9, b5/+5) so in our Cmi example, V7 becomes G B Db D# F Ab A#. Respell some of those pitches enharmonically (B > Cb, D# > Eb, A# > Bb) and you have the 7th mode of harmonic minor, superlocrian, G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb Fb G. If you want to alternate between 2 different alterations and use everybody's favorite mode over a 7 chord (mixolydian) you get G (Ab) A (Bb) B C (Db) D (Eb) E F G. Huh, chromatic scale.

V is where the fun is at. Play whatever you want.

[monroe55]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

If you have a static dominant chord you can play whatever you want and it's not "wrong". It simply becomes an alteration.

in Cmi the V7b9 chord is G B D F Ab. It's very common to alter the 9ths and the 5ths on the V in a minor tonality. In the Real Book you'll see V7(alt) and that means V7 (b9/+9, b5/+5) so in our Cmi example, V7 becomes G B Db D# F Ab A#. Respell some of those pitches enharmonically (B > Cb, D# > Eb, A# > Bb) and you have the 7th mode of harmonic minor, superlocrian, G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb Fb G. If you want to alternate between 2 different alterations and use everybody's favorite mode over a 7 chord (mixolydian) you get G (Ab) A (Bb) B C (Db) D (Eb) E F G. Huh, chromatic scale.

V is where the fun is at. Play whatever you want.

Huh? Dude, you lost me after ther first sentence. Thanks for explaining that though, I'm still learning. Anyway, whenever I see a word like Superlocrian I know I've gone too far into the underworld of modes and scales. Maybe I should start familiarizing myself with minor modes though.

All I got out of what you said was when I am playing in a "minor key", the V7 chords will usually allow for b5ths and b9ths. Is that correct?

Also, what does the + symbol refer to? As in b9/+9?

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by monroe55

Huh? Dude, you lost me after ther first sentence. Thanks for explaining that though, I'm still learning. Anyway, whenever I see a word like Superlocrian I know I've gone too far into the underworld of modes and scales. Maybe I should start familiarizing myself with minor modes though.

All I got out of what you said was when I am playing in a "minor key", the V7 chords will usually allow for b5ths and b9ths. Is that correct?

Also, what does the + symbol refer to? As in b9/+9?

Yes, the V chords will allow for all alterations of the extensions. "Extensions" = 9th, 11th (natural 11 not common) and 13th.

'b' means lower the note a half step, '+' means raise it a half step. Eg G7 (b9 +5) would be spelled G B D# F Ab.

As far as learning modes goes, there is FAR more use in learning the modes of the harmonic minor scale. Lydian Dominant and Superlocrian being two very useful (and not boring sounding) modes.

[monroe55]

What are the modes to the Harmonic Minor scale? I could figure them out based on the scale degrees, right? Or just google them.
Im finding the names given for these modes vary. Guess it doesn't matter what they are "called".

As I learn them, I get confused trying to arpeggiate some of these modes. Especially the 3rd one(forgot its name). Seems like an Augmented scale?

How should I approach all this safely?

[Chrispurchase]

I'm not to sure what they are called, I just call them the ii and v mode of the scale. I wouldn't worry about learning all the modes of the harmonic minor scale at the moment just the the ii & the V, cause that's all you'll probably use for the moment and then start learning the Lydian Dominant and Super locrian/altered scales.

[mambo4]

I always wondered about the superlocrian scale. a quick Google reveals it has many names
superlocrian
altered scale (what i know it as)
altered dominant scale
7th mode of melodic minor
diminished-wholetone scale

it's for playing over altered V7 chords.
here's how I view it:
Take a regular vanilla Mixolydian scale
Keep the Root, 3rd and b7th
throw in any note NOT in the mixolydian scale

in other words, the 2,4,5,and 6 are all "altered" vs the vanilla mixolydian scale
(actually it gets kinda fuzzy here: there's a "b3" and a "b4" - but the b4 actually harmonically functions as the Maj 3rd of the V7 alt chord ...yaddah yaddah)

fun times indeed.

[monroe55]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Yes, the V chords will allow for all alterations of the extensions. "Extensions" = 9th, 11th (natural 11 not common) and 13th.

'b' means lower the note a half step, '+' means raise it a half step. Eg G7 (b9 +5) would be spelled G B D# F Ab.

As far as learning modes goes, there is FAR more use in learning the modes of the harmonic minor scale. Lydian Dominant and Superlocrian being two very useful (and not boring sounding) modes.

Wait a minute. Aren't LydianDom and Superlocrian modes for the Melodic Minor?

Harmonic Minor vs Melodic Minor , what's their story? How are they used differently? How are they used?(Besides the maj6 note differing between the two)

[Chrispurchase]

Originally Posted by monroe55

Wait a minute. Aren't LydianDom and Superlocrian modes for the Melodic Minor?

Harmonic Minor vs Melodic Minor , what's their story? How are they used differently? How are they used?(Besides the maj7 note differing between the two)

Lydian Dom and Super locrian are modes for the jazz/Melodic minor.

The difference between Jazz Minor and Harmonic Minor is that Jazz Minor uses a major 6th - I think of it as a major scale with a minor 3rd.

by using harmonic minor you'll sound much more inside the harmony than using Super Locrian.

Are you using this for soloing or general bass line construction?

[monroe55]

Originally Posted by Chrispurchase

Lydian Dom and Super locrian are modes for the jazz/Melodic minor.

The difference between Jazz Minor and Harmonic Minor is that Jazz Minor uses a major 6th - I think of it as a major scale with a minor 3rd.

by using harmonic minor you'll sound much more inside the harmony than using Super Locrian.

Are you using this for soloing or general bass line construction?

For Soloing, I guess.
This thread started becuse of a lesson I read on things to play while soloing over a minor chord vamp. The lesson confused me a bit when we implied a 2-5-1 and the 2 we used was a m7b5 and the V7 had a #9 in it. I was thinking that a V from a minor chord would be a minor5 (the 5th of natural minor having a b3 in it).I wasnt aware of the option to assume the static chord to have Melodic/Harmonic Minor possibilities.

[mambo4]

Honestly I think this melodic minor modal analysis happened after the fact:
A bunch of jazz cats in the 50s were soloing crazy over minor chord progressions.
they were using the chord tones and adding in what their ears wanted
some theory wank (like me) wrote it all down and said "hey, this looks like the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale"

I have no basis for this belief other than the fact that, from what I have read of coltrane and the like, they spoke in terms of chords, not modes and scales.

I could be wrong tho...

[monroe55]

Im with you Mambo4 on that kind of thinking about how all these cool sounds came about, I know Im being a nerd about it all.

BTW. What did you mean by this regarding our discussion -"they spoke in terms of chords, not modes and scales" ?

[Chrispurchase]

Originally Posted by mambo4

I have no basis for this belief other than the fact that, from what I have read of coltrane and the like, they spoke in terms of chords, not modes and scales.

I could be wrong tho...

Modes, Scales & Chords are all pretty much the same thing

[devine]

Lol! Monroe55... i'll get the tutorial done asap. I'll try and get it done by either the end of this week or the beginning of the next. There's loads of fun you can have over dominant chords so watch this space!

easy,

Scott.

http://www.scottsbasslessons.com

http://www.scottdevinemusic.com

[mambo4]

BTW. What did you mean by this regarding our discussion -"they spoke in terms of chords, not modes and scales" ?

this thread is an example

Carol Kaye, who was no stranger to bebop in the day, has long espoused this idea as this thread indicates.

Originally Posted by Chrispurchase

Modes, Scales & Chords are all pretty much the same thing

indeed, it all interconnects inseparably and each viewpoint is useful. This truth tends to be overlooked in those "controversial" theory threads with each claiming that it's "all about" their particular favorite concept. Like chord tones, in my case

[monroe55]

Originally Posted by mambo4

this thread is an example

Carol Kaye, who was no stranger to bebop in the day, has long espoused this idea as this thread indicates.



indeed, it all interconnects inseparably and each viewpoint is useful. This truth tends to be overlooked in those "controversial" theory threads with each claiming that it's "all about" their particular favorite concept. Like chord tones, in my case

Thanks again Mambo4. Im definately a Chord Tone man myself. I invested a lot of time blindly running scales and modes when I was younger until I stumbled upon a Berlin thread that lead me to his chord toneinfo/ lessons...I never looked back after that.

I need to learn more about this concept of "stacked" triads and stuff. It sounds like info I probably "know" already but just never sat down to focus on what the concepts entail. I'll have to do more searches on stacked triads and stuff.