Scale/Chord Theory Question

[beaglegod]

My question is this:

Lets say as a simple example (and I do mean simple as Ive been doing way too much reading on theory and actually heard my mind whimper)

lets say your trying to construct a bass line for a song that has a chord progression in the key of C and the first chord used is C major. Could you use any mode that has a major quality to it (C-Ionian or C-Lydian)
or is it best to stay in C-Ionian?

[bassplayer22]

You could play a number of different things over a "C" major chord (C-E-G), but I guess the key is figuring out what fits and sounds the best. Experiment with pentatonic's and arpeggio's as well, both major and minor.

Tim

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by beaglegod

My question is this:

Lets say as a simple example (and I do mean simple as Ive been doing way too much reading on theory and actually heard my mind whimper)

lets say your trying to construct a bass line for a song that has a chord progression in the key of C and the first chord used is C major. Could you use any mode that has a major quality to it (C-Ionian or C-Lydian)
or is it best to stay in C-Ionian?

If the song is clearly in the key of C Major I would stick to C major. But this doesn't mean you can't try to connect your scale tones/or chords with chromatic notes,

Sly

[mambo4]

Technically the answer is that any major scale type of mode will work, but some will sound better in the context of an entire chord progression in the key of C. In my reading i've seen the idea that the major scale 4th (F in this case) clashes with the 3rd (E) and should be avoided or raised a semitone, making the Lydian scale a preferred choice in a jazz solo context

In reality, I'm with Sly, what I do is stick with roots/chord tones and let my fingers, guided by my ear, decide any "in-between" notes, based on the explicit or implied style of the song.

Much of the "how do I apply my theory to come up with a cool bass line" can be answered by a good study of a particular style (and its seminal players)

[JTE]

It depends on the context. What comes after the C chord? My feeling is that if you focus on the chord tones, then ANY other note will work. How well that F# works against a C major chord depends on the context, the melody, and what the song is. An F# is more likely to work in a fusion-ish vamp than in a simple straight-forward folk song.

But then again, that F# will work great as the last note under the C chord when it's followed by a G chord.

So, look at how the chords go together, find scales that work with a group of chords (instead of changing scales with each chord change), and LISTEN. Don't take any of this as discrete bits, but look at how things are working together. Get the big picture of the chord progression.

jte

[onlyclave]

Is the song just a chord progression and a bass line or is there a melody in there somewhere too? Don't forget about that part because it may give you valuable insight into where your bass lines hould go.

[DocBop]

There is no one answer because it depends on the music, the rhythm, the phrase. Yes there is theory giving the common usage, but the real answer is how much time seat time you have spend playing a scale against a chord and listening.

I lean toward the Lydian because the 4th in Ionian is an Avoid note. The 4th clashes with the 3rd if used on a strong beat. That is info you get from practice/playing. I use Lydian (and Lydian b7 on 7th chords) so I have the #4 that works. The #4 is enharmonic b5 Blue note. So there are common use scales, but you have to practice to find what note(s) give a scale mode its identity like the #4 of lydian or the 6th in Dorian. Then create lines or riffs using those colors. That is just the basics checking out a scale on the chord from the family it relates to, but next is using a the scale with other scales in context of common chord movements.

So in a II V I working on your choice of scale, arpeggio, pattern for a V chord going to a I chord and using Lydian. Now that I chord moving to II. What are notes you like for connecting the the scale together, what notes are common to both scales, or for me I look for where half-step difference I can exploit resolving on the chord change.

Thought you were done no now where are the chord tones within the scale, what are the color tones from the scale like Lydian gives me 9, #11, 13. Then the technique aspect of playing the scale in one, two octaves and then from lowest open to highest available note on neck. Same with a full arpeggio (1 3 5 7 9 11 13).

So you get the idea actually learning a scale takes awhile, way more than learning a pattern of dots. That's why say learn the major scale and then natural minor inside out to this extent. Once you do that you've laid the ground work that will make learning other scales and modes easy.

[BassChuck]

Experiment and find something you like the sound of. After that.... examine the notes and decide what scale you have already used. Then you'll know what scale works in the context that you are playing in.

One of the reasons you may be confused at this point is (IMHO) you are putting the theory first. Put your ear, the musical context and your experience first. Let your knowledge of theory show you what your ear is hearing. Theory will not make music for you... it will show you how others have made music.

[scott petito]

assuming youe cmajor chord is functioning as the I chord or tonic the C lydian scale would general not be the best choice....if However the C major is functioning as something else lets say as bVII major 7 in the key of D major THEN the Lydian scale would be the chord scale of choice... in fact any major 7th chord EXCEPT the tonic chord takes the Lydian scale as it's primary chord scale... I hope that Helps and Harmonic analysis is your friend!

cheers
SP

[beaglegod]

Man I am so glad I found this website. Great info.

[edburns]

Hey Beagle; I've been at this for about 35 years and I have found sticking with the root, fifth, and octive always works. What sets us apart is what you throw in the mix. Try not to over think the theory stuff, you can get lost in it. As we said in the 60's...do your own thangggg! Whatever sounds good, do it, it will be fine.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by scott petito

assuming youe cmajor chord is functioning as the I chord or tonic the C lydian scale would genneral not be the best choice....if However the C major is functioning as something else lets say as bVII major 7 in the key of D major THEN the Lydian scale would be the chord scale of choice... in fact any major 7th chord EXCEPT the tonic chord takes the Lydian scale as it's primary chord scale... I hope that Helps and Harmonic analysis is your friend!

cheers
SP

Try playing F's on a CMaj chord on a strong beat you will get lots of strange looks even from non-musicians. The 4 is a half step from the 3rd your key identity note. The 4th will imply a Sus sound on a major chord. Hence most consider the 4th an Avoid note. Use Lydian on a I chord you don't clash with the 3rd. Again sit and play and record yourself you will come to the same conclusion.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by DocBop

Try playing F's on a CMaj chord on a strong beat you will get lots of strange looks even from non-musicians. The 4 is a half step from the 3rd your key identity note. The 4th will imply a Sus sound on a major chord. Hence most consider the 4th an Avoid note. Use Lydian on a I chord you don't clash with the 3rd. Again sit and play and record yourself you will come to the same conclusion.

How many songs are written in lydian? And how many are written in diatonic major? Reverting to lydian because of the tension built by scale degree four isn't teaching anybody anything - scale degree four is what makes a major key sound like a major key versus lydian modal music. When was the last time you heard a tune written entirely in lydian? Knowing how to use the 4th scale degree is important and not something you can learn how to do just by blithely switching modality. It's not even a matter of playing it on the weak beat (although playing it on the strong beat is generally not advisable in basslines, although you never know). If it was always relegated to the weak beat, we wouldn't have tunes like Stella by Starlight, where the Berklee "avoid note" rule is violated IN THE MELODY, and we wouldn't be able to use the blues scale on a blues. Natural 11 is not an available tension on dominant seventh chord, yet sounds awesome when in the melodic context of a blues scale.

There's more to playing music than cheap fixes with chord scales. Being aware of how the specific notes in the scale behave melodically is important to the craft. Lydian in a nice resource as an alternative, yes, but learning key relationships to chords is far more important earlier on in one's development as a musician and bass player.

EDIT: A thought. Melody, in some fashion anyway, is what we're talking about with scale relationships to chords. What tunes have #11 in the melody on a I major chord, on the beat or off? Of any genre of music in addition to jazz (in jazz its more likely though). For every one than anybody here can name that is an undisputed lydian sound, I'll name no less than five songs that have the natural four in some capacity.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

How many songs are written in lydian? And how many are written in diatonic major? Reverting to lydian because of the tension built by scale degree four isn't teaching anybody anything - scale degree four is what makes a major key sound like a major key versus lydian modal music. When was the last time you heard a tune written entirely in lydian? Knowing how to use the 4th scale degree is important and not something you can learn how to do just by blithely switching modality. It's not even a matter of playing it on the weak beat (although playing it on the strong beat is generally not advisable in basslines, although you never know). If it was always relegated to the weak beat, we wouldn't have tunes like Stella by Starlight, where the Berklee "avoid note" rule is violated IN THE MELODY, and we wouldn't be able to use the blues scale on a blues. Natural 11 is not an available tension on dominant seventh chord, yet sounds awesome when in the melodic context of a blues scale.

There's more to playing music than cheap fixes with chord scales. Being aware of how the specific notes in the scale behave melodically is important to the craft. Lydian in a nice resource as an alternative, yes, but learning key relationships to chords is far more important earlier on in one's development as a musician and bass player.

EDIT: A thought. Melody, in some fashion anyway, is what we're talking about with scale relationships to chords. What tunes have #11 in the melody on a I major chord, on the beat or off? Of any genre of music in addition to jazz (in jazz its more likely though). For every one than anybody here can name that is an undisputed lydian sound, I'll name no less than five songs that have the natural four in some capacity.

Where did I say anything about composition? i was talking bass lines and improvisation.

[scott petito]

Originally Posted by DocBop

Try playing F's on a CMaj chord on a strong beat you will get lots of strange looks even from non-musicians. The 4 is a half step from the 3rd your key identity note. The 4th will imply a Sus sound on a major chord. Hence most consider the 4th an Avoid note. Use Lydian on a I chord you don't clash with the 3rd. Again sit and play and record yourself you will come to the same conclusion.

yes you are correct the 4th is the avoid note on in the ionian mode... that's why you would avoid it so don't play F on a strong beat on a I chord (unless you are in Steely Dan)

what i was saying is.. that strictly speaking the Chords function determines the correct scale to use for improv and composition the tonic or I takes the major scale....that does not mean that the 4th can't be used as a passing tone in a bass line or melody....

also the 4th degree of the major scale is what defines the key because it is part of the tritone (f and b in the key of C) which are contained in the V chord and define the V-I resolution... if you use the lydian mode as the chord scale of choice you displace the tritone to F# and C therefore you are implying the Key of G (naturally because the Lydian mode in C is the G major scale)...that is also why any other Major 7th related to a Key take the Lydian mode .. because you don't imply a resolution to another Key basically implying a modulation

all of the is much more important to know for composing than creating a base line but the general concept applies..

for a fun take on this check out the "Lydian chromatic concept" by George Russell

oh and by the way I've recorded myself on 400 albums

cheers
SP

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by DocBop

Where did I say anything about composition? i was talking bass lines and improvisation.

And what's the difference? If you'd like, I could change my challenge to "recordings of songs", and it would be the same thing.

[Richard Lindsey]

I tend to agree with HaVIC5. I know of no reason to use the Lydian as the default for a major I chord. Of course you CAN use it if you want that flavor and make that choice, but it's not automatically preferable for that context. It does tend to obscure the tonality, if a straight diatonic major sound or something like it is what's going on around you. As bass players, we have the same obligation to outline the harmony (or, depending on context, to tweak it or even blow it up) that everybody else does. If a Lydian thing is what's happening, then sure, go ahead, but if it's not, then something else might be better. To me, you would no more use a Lydian for every major I chord than you would use a Dorian for every minor 7th chord.

[JTE]

See, that whole discussion of Lydian vs. Ionian is why I find modal instruction mostly pointless for bass. The discussion comes down to the F natural or F# for the C chord. If you target the 1, 3, 5 then whether you use F or F# in a fill becomes a matter of your ear and taste. My "go to" is neither mode, nor the C major scale. It's the C major triad and I look at the other eight chromatic notes as my alternate choices.

Our job as bassist (beyond the rhythmic aspects) is to DEFINE the harmony. It's a C chord so we need to tell everyone that it's a C chord.

jte

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by JTE

Our job as bassist (beyond the rhythmic aspects) is to DEFINE the harmony. It's a C chord so we need to tell everyone that it's a C chord.

jte

True, but that's not all there is to it, as I'm sure you recognize. For one thing, you don't define the harmony just by defining one chord, even if it's the tonic. One chord is generally not sufficient to define the whole harmonic space you're occupying. There are indeed some songs that, harmonically speaking, are just a bunch of tenuously related or unrelated chords strung together. But more often in the music most of us play, the chords are not little islands of harmony but have structural and functional relationships to each other.

So when you play under a chord, you have to deal not just with the notes in the chord, but also with the whole harmonic space in which that chord lives (where it comes from, where it goes, how it's functioning). In this way, the nonchordal notes you use between your chordal tones matter for defining the harmony. The harmony you define by preferring F# differs from the harmony you define by preferring F. That matters. So understanding something about the modes and scales, if you apply it sensibly and effectively (I agree this stuff is often WAY overthought and chewed to death), is quite relevant and useful.

[scott petito]

I don't know I guess I'm just in a mood... but the lydian/ionian opened up a chord/scale discussion and as such it points up the necessity of understanding the chords function before just applying a scale for improv or composing... Harmonic composition is where all of this stuff most applies ......

but to give you a quick idea of how to build the most appropriate or "inside" scale for any harmony.... try this

analyze a progression ie I ii V I in C maj

Imajor 7th chord construct chord tones: C E G B
then add tensions (any note in the key a whole step above a chord tone)
So add 9 and 13or6 C D E G A B C
fill in with the scale tones that remain that would be F in C major

Final chord scale: C D E F G A B C since F is neither a chord tone or tension it is the avoid note

II-7 start with chord tones: D F A C add tensions 9 and 11 or E and G

D E F G A C

whats left in the key of C major? B that's your avoid note on the II- chord

final scale D E F G A B C D

V7 chord: chord tones- G B D F
add tensions: 9 A 13 E
chord scale: G A B D F
add the remaining tone fro the C major scale C again the avoid note on the V7 chord

Final Chord scale G A B C D E F G

get the idea

I could show you how you derive altered tensions especially on the v7 chord
but that requires a discussion of modal interchange or borrowing chords and notes from parallel and relative scales

have at that for a spell

cheers
SP