Scale modes...

[moopants]

In the scale of Bb maj., I know the 3rd note is D, and it's called the Phrygian mode when you play the Bb scale starting on D. Would you call this scale Bb Phrygian or D Phrygian? =o

[mstott25]

D phrygian....

Like this...

Bb Ionian
C Dorian
D Phrygian
Eb Lydian
F Mixolydian
G Aeolian
A Lochrian

[moopants]

Thank you!!!!!!

[98dvl]

Originally Posted by mstott25

D phrygian....

Like this...

Bb Ionian
C Dorian
D Phrygian
Eb Lydian
F Mixolydian
G Aeolian
A Lochrian

I never understood this... Seems like it'd be easier to call it Bb Phrygian... That way, you know that it's the third mode in the Bb scale, so it'd be easy to remember how to play it (just start on the third tone in the scale).

Is there some trick to figure out that the D Phrygian mode is the third mode in the Bb scale? Or likewise, that the F Mixolydian mode is the fifth mode in the Bb scale?

Maybe there's some trick, but I always have to look everything up.... Or figure it out by playing backwards... which can get confusing if you've had a couple beers.

[The BurgerMeister]

Originally Posted by 98dvl

I never understood this... Seems like it'd be easier to call it Bb Phrygian... That way, you know that it's the third mode in the Bb scale, so it'd be easy to remember how to play it (just start on the third tone in the scale).

Is there some trick to figure out that the D Phrygian mode is the third mode in the Bb scale? Or likewise, that the F Mixolydian mode is the fifth mode in the Bb scale?

Maybe there's some trick, but I always have to look everything up....

no trick... it's a matter of memorization. if you think about it though, saying "D Phrygian" is like saying "D Major..." it's just that the values of the intervals in the scale are different. "Major" is a type of scale, "Phrygian" is a type of scale... just like "Minor" is a type of scale.

i don't know if i explained this too well.... sorry.

bottom line: memorize.

[Freddels]

How about a little of both to help you remember? It's all about learning, memorizing and applying.

So in your example of Bb Major scale. You could refer to it as (Bb Major D Phrygian mode) or (Bb Major C Dorian mode), etc. This may help you remember the major scale that it's derived from and the beginning mode note.

[Zebra]

Originally Posted by 98dvl

I never understood this... Seems like it'd be easier to call it Bb Phrygian... That way, you know that it's the third mode in the Bb scale, so it'd be easy to remember how to play it (just start on the third tone in the scale).

Is there some trick to figure out that the D Phrygian mode is the third mode in the Bb scale? Or likewise, that the F Mixolydian mode is the fifth mode in the Bb scale?

Maybe there's some trick, but I always have to look everything up.... Or figure it out by playing backwards... which can get confusing if you've had a couple beers.

I don't think so. This way is more direct, at least for me. Instead of having to think "so the key is Bb, that means the mode will start on this note..." the convention just tells you where the mode starts. It's the phrygian form starting on D. Pretty direct. The same as the other way, only it cuts out that extra step.
I figure the convention is this way because saying Bb (insert mode) would imply the key is Bb, which could be completely untrue in a piece of music.

[tZer]

A mnemonic to keep the sequence of modes in order:

In Dark Places Lie Many Angry Lions

Ionian (Major)
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian (Minor)
Locrian

so if you are in Bb Major (Ionian) then cruising up the scale, you will run across;

C Dorian
D Phrygian
Eb Lydian
F Mixolydian
G Aeolian (Minor)
A locrian

Likewise, if you are in G Minor (the aeolian mode and the relative minor to Bb Major), start crawling up the scale pitches from Aeolian and cycle around after Locrian - G Aeolian, A Locrian, Bb Ionian... etc...

As for how you use this - that is a long-running and many faceted debate. As many will tell you, if you are in Bb Major (ionian) and you start on D, then you are playing a Bb Major scale that starts on D. Calling it D Phrygian is fine, but it is still the key sig. of Bb Major, just beginning of the 3rd note of the scale...

But that is the order of the modes and how they relate to a scale, in general.

[tjh]

In Dark Places Lie Many Angry Lions ... very good ... thanks for that ... I too struggle with modes, so if it is a minor key, would the second (which would be a major chord?) be locrian, or Ionian ...meaning does it start at the top or continue from aeolian ?? ... I know what I just asked, but I might be the only one ...

[Sean S]

While it is important to know which major scale the modes derive from, naming them is easier if you recognize the pattern of the mode; you name them based on the starting note.

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by tjh

In Dark Places Lie Many Angry Lions ... very good ... thanks for that ... I too struggle with modes, so if it is a minor key, would the second (which would be a major chord?) be locrian, or Ionian ...meaning does it start at the top or continue from aeolian ?? ... I know what I just asked, but I might be the only one ...

The minor modes can get complicated.

The modes of the natural minor scale are the same as the major scale, but shifted:

i Aeolian
ii Locrian
III Ionian
iv Dorian
v Phrygian
VI Lydian
VII Mixolydian

When playing in minor keys, you tend to get a lot of accidentals coming in to play, sharpening notes out of key. This is to deal with the weak v-i cadence, making it a V-i cadence. Which is where the harmonic and melodic minor scales come from:

Harmonic minor modes (names are not universal):

i Harmonic minor (Aeolian #7)
ii Locrian #6
III Harmonic major (Ionian #5)
iv Spanish Phrygian (Dorian #4)
V Phrygian dominant (Phrygian #3)
VI Lydian #2
vii super locrian bb7 (Mixolydian #1)

Some of these are found a lot in Klezmer and eastern european music.

Melodic minor modes (again, names not universal)

i Melodic minor (Aeolian #6 #7)
ii Dorian b2 (Locrian #5 #6)
III Lydian augmented (Ionian #4 #5)
IV Lydian dominant (Dorian #3 #4)
V Mixolydian b6 (Phrygian #2 #3)
vi Locrian #2 (Lydian #1 #2)
vii Superlocrian or altered (Mixolydian #7 #1)

Some of the names there look like odd choices. For example, mode 2 of the melodic minor is called "Dorian b2" rather than "Locrian #5 #6", but if you look at how they're formed, you'll see why:

Locrian:
1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7
Make it mode 2 of the Melodic minor by sharpening the b5 and b6:
1, b2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Which is closer to dorian than locrian in sound (and easier to remember)
Dorian:
1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7

Some of the modes (6 and 7 of the melodic minor and 7 of the harmonic minor) are totally changed by the sharpening of the 1, which completely changes their function:

Mode 7 of the natural minor:
Mixolydian:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Make it mode 7 of the melodic minor by sharpening the 1 and 7:
#1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Which makes no sense since scales are referred to in reference to the 1, so we rearrange it like so:
1, b2, b3, b4, b5, b6, b7
Which is like locrian, but even more so with that flattened 4 so we call it "Superlocrian".

[Cloggy]

I find that to avoid any ambiguity or confusion it's better to think in terms of Phrygian on D or minor mixolydian on G.
Works for me anyway.

[steveb98]

Originally Posted by 98dvl

I never understood this... Seems like it'd be easier to call it Bb Phrygian... That way, you know that it's the third mode in the Bb scale, so it'd be easy to remember how to play it (just start on the third tone in the scale).

Is there some trick to figure out that the D Phrygian mode is the third mode in the Bb scale? Or likewise, that the F Mixolydian mode is the fifth mode in the Bb scale?

Maybe there's some trick, but I always have to look everything up.... Or figure it out by playing backwards... which can get confusing if you've had a couple beers.

No tricks you just have to know how to spell your major scales. The mode from the third degree of any major scale is Phrygian, it's that simple. If someone says D Phrygian, just think D is the third degree of what major scale. Right Bb. Another wording might help is Bb is the parent scale. So let say the parent scale of A Phrygian is F Major. Music is all math.

[dlloyd]

Yep, the only trick is one of memory.

Lydian:
1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7
Ionian:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Mixolydian:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Dorian:
1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Aeolian:
1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Phrygian:
1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Locrian:
1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7

See how they change one note at a time? It's easier to see if you use a fretboard diagram:

Lydian:
|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|-o-|-o-|---|---|
|---|-o-|-o-|---|-o-|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|

Ionian:
|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|-o-|-o-|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|

Mixolydian:
|---|---|---|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|

Dorian:
|---|---|---|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|
|-o-|---|-o-|-o-|---|

Aeolian:
|---|---|---|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|-o-|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|-o-|---|

Phrygian:
|---|---|---|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|-o-|---|
|-o-|-o-|---|-o-|---|

Locrian:
|---|---|---|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|---|
|-o-|-o-|---|-o-|---|
|-o-|-o-|---|-o-|---|

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by dlloyd

Yep, the only trick is one of memory.

Lydian:
1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7
Ionian:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Mixolydian:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Dorian:
1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Aeolian:
1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Phrygian:
1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Locrian:
1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7

See how they change one note at a time? It's easier to see if you use a fretboard diagram:

Lydian:
|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|-o-|-o-|---|---|
|---|-o-|-o-|---|-o-|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|

Ionian:
|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|-o-|-o-|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|

Mixolydian:
|---|---|---|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|

Dorian:
|---|---|---|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|-o-|
|-o-|---|-o-|-o-|---|

Aeolian:
|---|---|---|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|-o-|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|-o-|---|

Phrygian:
|---|---|---|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|-o-|---|
|-o-|-o-|---|-o-|---|

Locrian:
|---|---|---|---|---|
|-o-|---|-o-|---|---|
|-o-|-o-|---|-o-|---|
|-o-|-o-|---|-o-|---|

As has been said before, this is the best way to understand the modes and really hear what they are and how they differ. Think of them all as differing sets of intervals (and thus different sets of notes) from a specified starting point. Constantly trying to relate them to some putative parent scale is often misleading, as well as being more complicated than is usually necessary.

[tjh]

wow ... thanks to all for taking the time to post and respond ...