Scale vs. Mode

[Truktek2]

Hello all. I'm a theory newbie and have a question. What's the difference between a mode and scale? Is it just the starting point? For example C major is CDEFGABC and the Dorian mode is DEFGABCD. Why wouldn't it just be called D major? Also could the pentatonic scale be used over both major and minor chords? Thanks in advance I have a lot of work ahead of me

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Truktek2

Hello all. I'm a theory newbie and have a question. What's the difference between a mode and scale?

A mode is a mood of a scale. Eash scale has seven modes thus a scale has seven moods, IF, you play it over the modal vamp that will sustain that mood. Read that again..... http://www.riddleworks.com/modalharm3.html

Is it just the starting point? For example C major is CDEFGABC and the Dorian mode is DEFGABCD. Why wouldn't it just be called D major?

Because D major is not D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D. http://www.thecipher.com/letter-spellings.html#f04

So could the pentatonic scale be used over both major and minor chords?

Yes major pentatonic over major things and minor pentatonic over minor things. By things - chords, scales. http://books.google.com/books?id=oPn...epage&q&f=true
If fact that is the way to go use pentatonic and leave modes alone until you run out of things to do with the major and natural minor scale and the major and minor pentatonic scale. Well, the blues scale can enter your life before modes. Why? It's easy and sounds great.

Have fun.

[Scottgun]

For example C major is CDEFGABC and the Dorian mode is DEFGABCD. Why wouldn't it just be called D major?

Because if you play DEFGABCD what you've got is a minor scale with a raised 6th.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Truktek2

Hello all. I'm a theory newbie and have a question. What's the difference between a mode and scale? Is it just the starting point? For example C major is CDEFGABC and the Dorian mode is DEFGABCD. Why wouldn't it just be called D major? Also could the pentatonic scale be used over both major and minor chords? Thanks in advance I have a lot of work ahead of me

No difference. Modes = scales.

Modes are the most important part of music theory. Period.

/thread.

[drunkenrobot]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

No difference. Modes = scales.

Modes are the most important part of music theory. Period.

/thread.

Helpful

To answer the OP; you're essentially right. A mode is a scale, simply played on a different starting note. When playing a mode you keep all the same intervals as the original scale, so the shape of each mode on the fretboard is different to the original scale. These shapes can be seperated into two different categories; major shape modes and minor shape modes. Basically each mode resembles the shape of either the major or minor scales, just altered slightly. Learn the major and minor scales and you should have no problem picking up the various mode shapes.

Each mode sounds different to the original scale despite consisting of the same notes. For example, the Phygrian mode sounds very latin/spanish due to having a flattened 2nd. If your original scale was C major, Phygrian is the 3rd mode so it starts on the E, thus it is: E F G A B C D E. If you play that on your bass you'll find that it is simply the minor scale with a flattened 2nd.

Anywho, I'm not actually all that knowledgable about modes. I'd recommend talking to your bass teacher about it, they'll be able to help you understand it all better than anyone on here can (due to being over the internet, not lack of knowledge ).

Also check out what Wikipedia has to say about modes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propert..._musical_modes

[Truktek2]

I appreciate all the good info guys. Is there an order I should be learning things (easier to harder) such as Major-Minor-pentatonic-modes etc? Also, what isn't used as often, this way I can concentrate on what is more commonly used. I would word my questions a little more intelligently, but I don't have enough musical knowledge to do so I play mostly rock and blues and can play pretty well by ear, I just want to understand why, and obviously progress.

[MalcolmAmos]

Music is made from three things. Melody, harmony and rhythm. What you learn first depends on which one of those you will be providing.

As this is primarily a bass forum harmony and rhythm would IMO apply more so than melody. You play melody on the bass when you have the lead break. How often does that happen? Modes would come into play with your lead break.

IMO - Chord tones and pentatonic scales come into play when you are furnishing harmony and rhythm. How to develop a bass line is very important. http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bas...s-are-primary/

Spend some time at www.studybass.com a wealth of information at that site.

Understand your fretboard and how to use chord tones to get your groove going is were I would point you.

Root nothing to the chord changes. Then,
Root-5 to the chord changes. Then,
R-3-5-3 the chord tones. R-3-5-b7 or R-b3-5-b7 and whatever it takes to get the groove going.
Perhaps R-R-3-3-5-5-6-5 whatever.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Modes are the most important part of music theory. Period.
/thread.

THIS is patently absurd. Unless you're actually playing modal music, they're really a very convoluted way to get to some very elementary principles.

First, a scale is the SOUND of notes played in a certain order. For example, the diatonic major scale is ("W" means a whole step, the SOUND of which is the distance of two frets, and "H" means a half-step, or the SOUND of a one fret distance). W W H W W W H.

If you start ANY scale (diatonic major, harmonic minor, petatonic major, the blues scale) on another note than the root, and play it one ocatve then you've created a mode. So, modes are by definition just other scales. They have a fundamental sound that's different from the major scale they're derived from- if you learn them correctly. But, beware any fool that tells you either of two things. If they tell you to learn modes by just taking one scale and starting it on a different note, and if they tell you "Use Ionian for the I chord, Dorian for the ii chord, and Mixolydian for the V chord."

Why? First of all, just playing any scale root-to-root is pointless. To KNOW a scale you need to know at minimum:
1. How it's built (e.g. W W H W W W H)
2. How to derive for yourself the notes in it with the correct enharmonic equivalents (that is, YOU have to KNOW why the key of A has a C# and not a Db) for any key.
3. How it SOUNDS- that is, you need to know what the next note is going to sound like before you play it.
4. How to find the notes of that scale starting with the lowest available one (not necessarily the root) on the whole neck. Not how to look them up on a chart, you gotta be able to FIND them yourself
5. How to physically play it over at least two octaves ascending and descending

That last is the least important part of knowing a scale, but it's the one most beginners THINK it the important part. It's meaningless if you don't have the other four parts down cold.

And, to use this stuff to create music I think THIS is the logical and prudent order to learn stuff...

---------------------------------------
THEORY PROGRESSION
---------------------------------------
Theory can seem like a quagmire to those who are starting out, and it's often difficult to know just how important a particular aspect of it is. I will say that learning how chords are built from scales is the most important aspect of theory. It is far more useful to understand chord construction than to memorize all those "Scales A and B go with chord X" formulas.

I'd say the logical progression learning music theory is this:

1.) Learn the major scale, and how it's constructed
2.) Learn how basic chords are built from the major scale- e.g Major is 1,3,5, minor is 1,b3, 5, etc.
3.) Learn how to harmonize the notes of any diatonic major scale by building chords / stacking thirds.
4.) Learn arppegios/chord tones
5.) Learn to look at common chord progressions as "numerals" (eg, I-IV-V ect) to understand how the chords relate to the song's key.
6.) Learn the Natural Minor scale (a/k/a Aeolian mode) and the dominant scale (a/k/a Mixolydian); And learn how these relate to the major scale (i.e.; its the V and vi mode)
7.) Understand how other 4 modes of the major scale are derived (less important to memorize these other modes at first)
8.) Dive back into modes for more detailed ideas about what "goes" with what chord.

Bass playing is basically a matter of knowing what to play over various chords. It may seem daunting at first, but my practical experience (bass in pop/rock) has been that I mostly use Major, Minor, and Dominant 7 related bassline patterns, usually based on chord tones and pentatonics. Even if you're playing some guitar oriented riff-rock, each riff is going to imply a chord of some kind.

"BUT HOW DO I APPLY THIS THEORY TO MY PLAYING?"
85%+ of the time, you will be going from root note to root note as the chords change. The trick is learning how to do it with a groove and feel that is stylistically appropriate to the song. The best way to reach stylistic understanding is to learn songs you like and pick them apart to see how the bassline relates to the chords. I cannot emphasize this idea enough: The answer to this common question is to LEARN AND ANALYZE BASS LINES BY THE MASTERS. Once you undertand what Jamerson (for example) did with a particular set of changes, these ideas become added to your tool set, to use, change, blend and create your own voice.

I highly recommend Edley's Music Theory for Practical People as well.
http://www.edly.com/mtfpp.html


The reason to run when they tell you to use Ionian for the I, etc. is because that way of thinking leads one to think of chords as disparate elements, when you need to be seeing them and thinking of them as connected bits of harmony. The very reason it's I ii V, etc. is because there's a relationship between those chords. So instead of THINKING this chord is different and I need a different scale (a/k/a mode) here, as bassists we need to be thinking of the commonality of the those chords. They're all in the key of C and they function together to define the key center of C major. So instead of mentally shifting gears with each chord change, think of them as the C major scale all the way through, with your target notes derived from the chords. That does NOT mean you only play chord tones. It means that you target the chord tones as your main notes, and your first choices for passing notes (notes not in the chord) are from the parent scale that's common to that section of chords.

Our job is to define the harmony, and if we don't own the harmony we can't define it. Therefore look at harmony, not individual scales. Bassist need to know more about chords. Guitarists can often get away with just knowing a shape. Bassist need to know what notes are in there and how they go together.
John

[Billnc]

A big problem with an overemphasis on modes is it leaves out so much you can do
i.e. D minor
You'd play D dorian, but...
You can substitute an F major and notes that lead to those chord tones
So you can throw in a C7 to lead to that Fmaj
You can throw in an A7 to lead to the D minor
the list goes on and on

You should not learn theory first. (well, JTE's order of things looks pretty good, apply them one step at a time, not holistically)
You should be given things to play, that is theory in action. You may then add to what you know how to play one step at a time. I learned how to play through a ii V I using chord tones and approaches long before modes were mentioned. Scales were taught, but to see how the chords fit (harmonised scale), and how to cycle chords and melodic ideas. NOT to solo with.

as JTE implies (I agree with much of what he says here)look at what a player uses to play through changes. But you don't have to do a whole lot of analysis, it shouldn't take to long to figure out what Jamerson is doing ( or anyone) it may take a little longer to see if a particular lick, if modified works through different chords.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by drunkenrobot

Helpful

To answer the OP; you're essentially right. A mode is a scale, simply played on a different starting note.

Wrong.

Originally Posted by drunkenrobot

Anywho, I'm not actually all that knowledgable about modes.

Correct.

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by Truktek2

Hello all. I'm a theory newbie and have a question. What's the difference between a mode and scale? Is it just the starting point? For example C major is CDEFGABC and the Dorian mode is DEFGABCD. Why wouldn't it just be called D major? Also could the pentatonic scale be used over both major and minor chords? Thanks in advance I have a lot of work ahead of me

A scale is a sequence of notes that includes some notes and excludes others. So is a mode. Two such sequences that include/exclude the same notes but start from a different point are said to be different modes of the same scale.

Here's a starting scale that includes only natural notes, no sharps or flats:

C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

Here's a particular mode (scale) based on our starting scale:

F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F


Here's a different starting scale using different notes:

A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A

And here's a different mode/scale based on that one:

E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D-E

Does that make sense?

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Wrong.

No, he's pretty much right with that bit, actually.

[Richard Lindsey]

Well, a mode is a scale, regardless of whether you're starting on a different note or not. Major and minor are not the only kinds of scale. (Because of the way many of us learn harmony in the West, we tend to "privilege" major and minor, but that's really just a local preference; not all music works quite the way they tell us in Harmony 101.) In a fundamental sense, a scale is any stepwise sequence of notes that follows a specified pattern of intervals. Thus, C D E F G A B C is a scale in this sense, but so is C D Eb F G A Bb C.

You can see this most clearly if you put aside the idea of tethering the modes to the major (or minor) scale for a minute and look at them from the same starting point:

C lydian: C D E F# G A B C
C ionian: C D E F G A B C
C mixolydian: C D E F G A Bb C
C dorian: C D Eb F G A Bb C
C aeolian: C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
C phrygian: C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
C locrian: C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C

Many of us call a couple of these scales and the rest modes, but there's no real difference in principle between them. They're the same kinds of things. They're all scales, or if you like, scales constructed by applying different modes to a specified starting point.

[Bassist4Life]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

You can see this most clearly if you put aside the idea of tethering the modes to the major (or minor) scale for a minute and look at them from the same starting point:

C lydian: C D E F# G A B C
C ionian: C D E F G A B C
C mixolydian: C D E F G A Bb C
C dorian: C D Eb F G A Bb C
C aeolian: C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
C phrygian: C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
C locrian: C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C

This is how I like to hear/practice the modes. This allows me to better understand their construction and their "flavor". If you drone a C in the bass and play these modes over the top, the "flavor" of the mode becomes very apparent. Give it a try.

Peace,
Joe

PS. Just curious... why'd you put the modes in that order?

[groooooove]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

No difference. Modes = scales.

Modes are the most important part of music theory. Period.

/thread.

modes arent neccesarily just "scales," while they can be learned/practiced through a scale. a mode is just like any other scale, its a collection of pitches that makes up the key that you're in.

now that im done being technical, modes are not the most important part of theory.

for jazz guys learning to improvise, modes are up there on the importance list. but saying "this is most important, period." is just plain wrong. to classical guys, modes arent really an important topic to study (not that its not studied and learned, but its not as important as other stuff.)

i'd rate a basic understanding of rudimentary harmony (all types of triads with proper spellings, ext) as the "most important" thing; but thats only because its the base upon wich you build the rest of your musical knowledge- weather you're studying classical, jazz, rock, anything.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Bassist4Life

Just curious... why'd you put the modes in that order?

Just a formal conceit. When you do them in this order, you get to the next mode in the list by lowering one pitch in the current mode by a half step (while keeping all the reductions that have gone before).

Thus, to get from lydian to ionian, you lower the F# to F. To get from ionian to mixolydian, you keep the F and lower the B to Bb. And so forth.

It's just a pretty progression this way. It also has the advantage--at least, I think it's an advantage--of taking the major (ionian) out of the privileged position at the top, which I think may reduce the temptation to chain all the modes to degrees of he major scale and may facilitate hearing the modes on a more equal footing. (Or perhaps not?)

[Disraeli Gears]

Originally Posted by Truktek2

Hello all. I'm a theory newbie and have a question. What's the difference between a mode and scale? Is it just the starting point? For example C major is CDEFGABC and the Dorian mode is DEFGABCD. Why wouldn't it just be called D major? Also could the pentatonic scale be used over both major and minor chords? Thanks in advance I have a lot of work ahead of me

It has to do with where the half and whole steps fall. In a major scale (AKA Ionian Mode) there is a half step between the 3rd and 4th notes and the 7th and 8th notes of the scale (in C major, that would be between E and F, and between B and C.)

The reason DEFGABCD is not a major scale is simply because, as you said, it's in the dorian mode, and a major scale is the ionian mode, not the dorian. D Major/Ionian would be DEF#GABC#D (note how the half steps fall between the 3rd and 4th notes, F# and G, and the 7th and 8th notes, C# and D, of the scale.)

What makes DEFGABCD Dorian and not Ionian/Major Scale is the fact that the half steps fall between the second and third notes (E and F) and the sixth and seventh notes (B and C) of the scale. Note how the half steps fall between the same NOTES (however not the same location WITHIN the scale) as in C Major.

That leads into the basis for where (it seems) that you are learning your modes. The different modes can be created by playing the notes of a C Major scale (or ANY major scale), but starting and ending on different notes. As was previously stated, modes are different "moods" of a scale, however I like to just think of them as different scales, in the same way that C Major and C Minor are different scales. I find thinking of things this way to be very helpful, because if you think of modes as simply major scales starting and ending on different notes, you'll always be trying to think of which start/end note on which major scale would produce the mode you're trying to play, and you'll be forced to think that way WHILE playing (hopefully that made sense; appologies for the somewhat less-than-eloquent wording.) Personally, I find it so much easier just to remember where the half steps fall in the scale.

Thus, any mode can start on any note, as long as the half steps are in the right place--it doesn't necessarily need to be different iterations of the notes in C Major. For example:

Ionian Mode:
As an iteration of C Major: C D E F G A B C
C Ionian: C D E F G A B C

Dorian Mode:
As an iteration of C Major: D E F G A B C D
C Dorian: C D Eb F G A Bb C

Phrygian Mode:
As an iteration of C Major: E F G A B C D E
C Phrygian: C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C

Lydian Mode:
As an iteration of C Major: F G A B C D E F
C Lydian: C D E F# G A B C

Mixolydian Mode:
As an iteration of C Major: G A B C D E F G
C Mixolydian: C D E F G A Bb C

Aeolian Mode:
As an iteration of C Major: A B C D E F G A
C Aeolian: C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

Locrian Mode:
As an iteration of C Major: B C D E F G A B
C Locrian: C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C

One thing that you may find helpful to note if you plan on learning where the half steps fall in each mode is the fact that for Ionian, Dorian, and Phrygian, the "upper" note in the first half step is going to be a perfect fifth below the "upper" note in the second half step. This changes beginning in the Lydian mode. Because of the fact that as you progress through the modes from Ionian to Locrian, the half steps occur progressively 1 note earlier in the scale with each mode. In the Phrygian mode, a half step occurs between the first and second notes of the scale, thus when you move to the Lydian mode, this half step can't come any sooner in the scale, so it gets bumped to the end of the scale (the same happens between Locrian and Ionian.) This means that from Lydian through Locrian, the "upper note" of each half step are a perfect fourth apart, instead of a perfect fifth as in Ionian through Phrygian.

My apologies if that's all been said before. Part of the reason I posted was to help consolidate all this knowledge in my own mind, because this is something I happen to be learning as well (so don't take what I say as the end all be all truth--I'm learning too!)

Anyway, hope it helped! It certainly helped me .

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by groooooove

modes arent neccesarily just "scales," while they can be learned/practiced through a scale. a mode is just like any other scale, its a collection of pitches that makes up the key that you're in.

now that im done being technical, modes are not the most important part of theory.

for jazz guys learning to improvise, modes are up there on the importance list. but saying "this is most important, period." is just plain wrong. to classical guys, modes arent really an important topic to study (not that its not studied and learned, but its not as important as other stuff.)

i'd rate a basic understanding of rudimentary harmony (all types of triads with proper spellings, ext) as the "most important" thing; but thats only because its the base upon wich you build the rest of your musical knowledge- weather you're studying classical, jazz, rock, anything.

I would bet money that onlyclave was just pulling the collective leg about the "most important part" business. He's snarky like that.

You're right that "mode" can also refer to a kind of key, as well as to a kind of scale. It's kind of inconvenient that we don't have two different words to distinguish these two sense, but AFAIK we don't.

[drunkenrobot]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Wrong.

I was trying to help someone who doesn't know what modes are to get a basic idea. I'm sorry if I offended your godly understanding of music theory with my trying to put modes into an easy to digest version.

Perhaps you should help out people such as the OP and myself who don't have that great a grasp of theory instead of being arrogant and aloof, claiming people are wrong and offering absolutely no justification for your claims, however right or wrong they may be.

[groooooove]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

I would bet money that onlyclave was just pulling the collective leg about the "most important part" business. He's snarky like that.

You're right that "mode" can also refer to a kind of key, as well as to a kind of scale. It's kind of inconvenient that we don't have two different words to distinguish these two sense, but AFAIK we don't.

well really, thinking of say, G mixolydian, as two differnt things- a key and a scale, is incorrect. when it comes down to it, "G mixolydian" and "E major" have the same relationship between the key and the scale. the scale is just the pitches used, organised from low tonic to high tonic. all a scale is, is the pitches of a key organised in order.

when you go to play "all blues" by miles davis, do you really need to distingish thinking of those same notes now as your "key" rather than a "scale?" not at all. theyre the same thing.