scales, lots of them

[project_c]

not sure if this is a well known site, or if you know of anywhere better, but i came across what looks like an ancient site with a really comprehensive list of bass scales, i found it very useful:
http://www.angelfire.com/id/bass/

[MarkTAW]

Interesting, but those images ignore the fact that the melodic minor is different when ascending v. descending.

[project_c]

my knowledge on the subject is very limited - can you explain a bit more about that?

[damianerskine]

Melodic minor is only different ascending vs ascending in classical music.
Forget the reasoning behind it, but most musicians don't really adhere to that anymore. It's just melodic minor. especially in jazz...

[mdiddium]

The reason being that the classical rule is to have a leading tone on the ascending, and raising the 6th prevents an augmented second between the two. Descending allows the lowered 7th and 6th scale degrees because they are no longer used in the context of a leading tone-tonic relationship. I was always under the impression that this was the "classical melodic minor" whereas the "jazz melodic minor" has both raised 6th and 7th scale degrees on ascending AND descending. I guess it's really just a matter of distinguishing between the two types.

[CapnSev]

Go get the "Bass Grimoire". It's pretty much the same thing. It's the best $15 I ever spent on a book.

[MarkTAW]

Originally Posted by mdiddium

The reason being that the classical rule is to have a leading tone on the ascending, and raising the 6th prevents an augmented second between the two. Descending allows the lowered 7th and 6th scale degrees because they are no longer used in the context of a leading tone-tonic relationship. I was always under the impression that this was the "classical melodic minor" whereas the "jazz melodic minor" has both raised 6th and 7th scale degrees on ascending AND descending. I guess it's really just a matter of distinguishing between the two types.

It's a bit difficult to explain if I don't know how much theory you already know because I don't know how much back story I'd have to give you to get you to understand.

Start with the major scale. What they call the major scale, ionian mode. (The Ionian mode *is* the major scale.) Except practice in this shape instead of theirs.

Now take this image:



The numbers are the scale degrees or intervals. A chord is typically made up of 3 notes, the notes being every OTHER note from where you start. So a "root" chord would be 1, 3, 5. We call this a "triad" for "three notes." You can start a chord on any note in the scale. A note starting on the 2nd note is called a "ii chord" using the roman numeral for 2. It would have the notes 2, 4, 6. Only we count the notes within the chord from the root of the chord and not the root of the scale. We name the notes in the ii chord as 1, 3, 5, even though within the scale they're 2, 4, 6.

The root triad is a very stable, good sounding chord. This is the most stable sounding chord there is. Other chords are less stable, and being less stable, when we hear them we want to hear them "resolve" to the more stable chord.

The most unstable chord is one that starts on the 7th note in the scale. It has the notes 7, 9, 11. (the 9 is the same as 2 but an octave higher: in a 7 tone scale the 8th note is the same as the first, so the 9th note is the same as the 2nd and so on).

The chord that starts on 7 is called a vii chord. Not to be confused with a "seventh" chord which is completely different.

What makes it unstable is the 4-7 relationship called a "tritone." They want to resolve "outwards." The 7 wants to become an 8 (again, 8 is the same as 1, the root), and the 4 wants to become a 3. Which brings us back to our very nice, stable root chord, 1, 3, 5.

The vii chord is so dissonant (unstable) that we add another note below it to make it a bit more stable - the 5th note in the scale, turning the vii chord into a V chord (with the 5 in the lowest position we now name it for that lowest note, V). But there's an extra note - four notes instead of three. We call these chords "seventh" chords. Starting from the 5th note in the chord you have 5, 7, 9, 11. But within the chord, you start numbering from 1, so 1, 3, 5, 7 - you have the seventh note of the V chord, so it's a seventh chord. You call this chord a V7 chord. (that's probably very confusing)

Scales without this relationship - the 4-7 tritone don't have the right kind of tension. The desire to return to 1, 3, so when we encounter a scale like this, we change the note that's where the 7 should be (a flat 7) and raise it to a full 7.

But this leaves a big gap between the 6 and 7, which is unacceptable. So we raise the 6 as well. In the middle ages and into the renaissance they only did this when the melody was ascending - climbing towards the root at 8. The 7 wants to LEAD into the 8, which is why we call the 7 the Leading Tone.

On the way down, you want to retain that nice minor flavor, and since you're not leading anywhere, you sing them in the minor position - flat 7, flat 6.

I'm sure you only understood about 10% of that, but if you keep it around and re-read it from time to time it will start to make a lot of sense. This is something I myself didn't learn until I'd been playing for years & years and it's not something you find in most introductory books...

[JTE]

Here's another way to look at Mark's message. Learn to harmonize the scale. Take each third note and build the four-note chords. And learn to figure out what the chords are. You'll find this- builidng the chords on the diatonic major scale will always give you the same chords- the roots change, but the relationships don't. So, using C major as the example you get.

The C scale:

C D E F G A B C.

Stack the thirds and you get the following intervals...

E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Again and you get these chords (triads)...

G A B C E E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C


And one more time gives you these 7th chords

B C D E F G A B
G A B C E E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Those chords are in order- Cmaj7, Dmin7, Emin7, Fmaj7, G7, Amin7, and Bmin7b5.

Now if you start the scale on the sixth degree (called Aeolian mode, but that's utterly NOT IMPORTANT for this discussion), you have the A Natural Minor scale. And it harmonizes the exact same way. Thing is that the V chord (a G7 in this case) has a strong pull to Cmaj. So if you harmonize the A Natrual minor scale it's still going to pull you to the C chord rather than the Amin you want for the minor key. So, someone got the idea to raise the G in the A minor scale a half step. Now you've got meldoically a half-step between the 7 and the one of the scale which is a nice pull for the ear. And every chord that has a G in it now has a G#. That gives you some new chords.

The Amin7 is now an Amin/maj7. The Emin7 is now E7 (that's going to pull you to the Amin chord). The G7 is now G#dim, which is ambigious and doesn't pull you anywhere. And the Cmaj7 is now a Cmaj#5 that's kind of weird. So you've resolved the harmonic reasons the natural minor scale pulls you to C instead of Amin. This change was made for harmonic reasons, so it's called the Harmonic Minor scale. You play this on a Strat with some overdrive and you sound like instant Richie Blackmoore (or more correctly, all of the Deep Purple genius' many poor imitators).

But it sound funny to some people what with that minor third between F and G# followed by the half-step. So to smooth that out, they raised the sixth a half-step to F#. That doesn't mess with the main chords (yeah, the Dmin becomes a Dmaj), and it smooths out the melodic problem of the Harmonic Minor scale so it's called the Melodic Minor scale. And the problem with the pull of the minor third between 6 and 7 isn't so big when descending so technically a Melodic Minor scale is played differently descending than ascending.

But all of this is a good way to get lost in the forest by looking at the trees.

My manifesto on scales is this.

Learn the diatonic major scale. That means knowing how to play it starting on any note. Not just all 12 keys, but all 12 keys starting on any scale note. Be able to play an C major scale over two octaves with efficient fingering starting on any note of the scale. Ignore that these have other names (modes), just learn to play them.

Be able to SING the scales as you play them. This is vital as it fixes the scale SOUND in your head. If you can't hear the scale in your head before you play it, you DON'T KNOW THAT SCALE! Regardless of how fast you can finger it, you don't know it. Learn it!!

Then learn the harmonized scale. Play the arpeggios of each chord in the scale, and again make yourself learn the sound of it. By "knowing a scale" I mean you know the notes in it, you can find it anywhere on the neck, you know the chords that come out of that scale, and you can play the arpeggios of those chords anywhere on the neck.


And learn all that by working it out for yourself. The only things you need to memorize are:

I. A major scale is built by whole steps (the sound of two notes two frets apart) and half-steps (the sound of notes one fret apart). The formula is:
W W H W W W H.

II a. The C Major scale has no sharps or flats. Therefore, it follows that there's a half-step between E/F and B/C. All others are whole steps. Figure this out for yourself on a piece of paper to see that it's right.

II b. Therefore the key of G has an F#. Go figure it out using the W W H W W W H formula. After that work out all 12 keys. DO NOT look them up until you've figured them out yourself. That'll teach you WHY the key of Bb has two flats, and WHY they're Eb and Bb. Same for why E is four sharps.

III. Know the chords for every key. That's how you know that the one (I) and four (IV) chords are major 7ths, the five (V) is a dominant 7, the two, three, and six (ii, iii, ane vi)
are minor 7, and the seven (vii) is a minor 7 b5. Not just that they are, but WHY.

That'll show you why a ii/V progression defines a key center. And you'll know the chords and see how they go together.

That's a LOT more useful that a compendium of diagrams showing a zilllion scales.

jte

[MarkTAW]

Thanks JTE, I knew I was being a little obtuse.

Here's an incredibly simple exercise to get yourself familiar with the major scale. I'm posting the whole thread since it's all relevant.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/keys-song-294226-post3629921/

[cire113]

The C scale:

C D E F G A B C.

Stack the thirds and you get the following intervals...

E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Again and you get these chords (triads)...

G A B C E E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C


And one more time gives you these 7th chords

B C D E F G A B
G A B C E E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Actually I figured this out on my own! just from doodling around a major scale... i noticed if i skipped in those intervals i can make chords that sound great in the same key starting on any note...

what is this called? are they just triads when you skip every other note and play the other notes together they always sound good.... how many chords have i figured out by doing this?


i still dont understand why their are minor chords, major chords, and dominat etc etc.. to me they are all just different chords

[JTE]

Major chords have a major third from the root to the the third. The chords in the key of C built on C and F are major (the triad built on the G is also a major chord). Minor chords have a minor third (the chords built on D, E, and A) are minor because of this.

The chord built on the G is technically a dominant 7, but most people mean this chord when they say a 7th chord. It's the only one with the major third from root to third, and a minor third from the fifth to the seventh.

Get yourself a good basic theory book as it will help clear up a lof of this stuff in a much more organized and easy to follow fashion. I highly recommend "Edley's Music Theory for Practical People". Follow the link...

http://www.edly.com/mtfpp.html


jte

[Araillac]

how would you go about finding out scales for a specific genre? like if i wanted to make up grunge stuff, how would i know what scales to play? (i've been searching the internet a lot and can't find anything )

[JTE]

"genre" generally has littel to do with what notes you play. Moslty because "genre" is a way to sell music, and doesnt' refer to the nuts and bolts of how things work. A C chord is a C chord no matter if it's played by Duke Ellington, Johnny Cash, Joe Strummer, Richie Blackmoore, or Stone Gossard. It's still the notes C, E, and G.

Learn the diatonic major scale, the pentatonic minor, and the pentatonic major, and maybe the dorian mode (I hate modal thinking unless you're actually playing a modal vamp). And by "learn" I don't mean just being able to fly around the neck. See my earlier post about "knowing" meaning you know what the scale sounds like.

After you get that, and you understand how the chords come from the scales, use your ear to figure out what works for different songs. And avoid any music teaching that lies to you by saying it'll unlock "secrets". There ain't no secrets, only hard work and listening.

jte