Scales/Modes/Chords

[jiveazzturkey]

Ok, I realize this has probably been covered somewhere, but I did a search and couldn't find anything that specifically answered my question..so bear with me. I think I'm pretty good as far as scale knowlege, and have just about memorized the 7 modes related to the major scale. Now my question is this: do I *generally* want to be playing in a mode/scale corresponding to the root note of the chord being played?

For example, if we're playing in C7, would I *generally* want to be playing off of C mixolydian mode?

If we're playing in C major, I would want to be playing either C Ionian or Lydian?

If we're in C Minor, I would want to be in either C Dorian, Phrygian, or Aeolian?

I do realize that you don't always have to start with the root note of the scale/mode/chord...and I do know that certain scale tones sound better than others when paired up with a particular chord.

The way I've been looking at modes, is to treat them basically as scales that fit well with certain chords (ie. major, minor, dominant, etc.). I haven't looked too much into how they are actually derived from the major scale.

I realize it can be a lot more complicated than this, so my questions are very "generally speaking". My next step is to start looking at chords and arpeggios and see how they fit into the mix. Any help would be much appreciated!

[DocBop]

Sounds like you have learned fingering patterns for modes and some basic chord scale relationships. Now the work begins on learning more about analyzing songs and getting the sounds of the mode in your ear, so you can make the decision of what mode or scale you want to play when.

Like your C minor 7 example in general the default choice is Dorian. But you need to record a Cmi7 vamp and sit and play Dorian over it and listen to the sound of the natural 6 against a Cmi7. Santana uses Dorian all the time can you hear it? Same with Phrygian try it against a Cmi7 you have b9 color tone. Many think Phrygian has a Spanish sound to it. This is how start to learn the sound of the modes and at same time start finding patterns, motifs to create lines with. Do the same with CMa7 in many consider Lydian the mode of choice because it avoid the perfect 4th considered an Avoid note.

Then start trying o apply this to songs. Take something like the first eight bars of the Jazz Standard All The Things You Are. The chords are..

Fmi7 | Bbmi7 | Eb7 | AbMa7 | DbMa7 | G7 | CMa7 | CMa7 |

You could try Dorian on the minor chords, Lydian on the majors, and Mixolydian on the dominant. But analyze the chord progression. It is

| VI | II | V | I | IV | V | I | I | (The song changes key at the G7 chord)

That would imply playing

F Aeolean | Bb Dorian | Eb Mixo | Ab Ionian | Db Lydian | G7 Mixo | C Ionian |

The first way just going by chord type and general mode works and has a sound of its own.

The second way fits the song a bit better and some cool transitions. Like going from F Aeolian to Bb Dorian going from a b6 sound to a major 6 sound offers color.

In real world you would probably go back and forth between methods.

So now is the cool part taking the modes you just learned and start making music with them. Discovering the colors each offer, getting your ear used to those sounds, then experimenting with them over chords and then over songs.

[jiveazzturkey]

Hey thanks man that helps a lot! Cheers.

[cowsgomoo]

Originally Posted by jiveazzturkey

do I *generally* want to be playing in a mode/scale corresponding to the root note of the chord being played?

For example, if we're playing in C7, would I *generally* want to be playing off of C mixolydian mode?

If we're playing in C major, I would want to be playing either C Ionian or Lydian?

If we're in C Minor, I would want to be in either C Dorian, Phrygian, or Aeolian?

generally, yeah... but unfortunately, it ain't quite that simple (it never bloody is!)

at any one time, there'll be what you might call an 'underlying harmonic environment' that conditions what notes will sound 'right' or 'wrong'

(this is in addition to your own personal tastes and other stuff like timbre, believe it or not (a distorted electric guitar can have such rich harmonic content that some notes might or might not work in quite the same way as, say, a marimba))

that harmonic environment is informed by not just the notes of the chord that are being played at that particular time but also of the chords that have just played, and the melody etc...

to use your example, if you encounter a basic Cm chord, and you ask your question 'what do I need here, Dorian, Phrygian or Aeolian?', the most natural or diatonic sounding mode will vary according to what chords preceded it...

if the Cm was part of the following chord sequence:

Bbmaj7 - Ebmaj7 - F7 - Cm

then your ear would probably tell you that C Dorian would be most diatonic, because the Cm is functioning as a ii chord...

the fundamental question 'are the second and sixth major or minor?' has already been answered by the existence of an A natural in the Bbmaj7 and F7 chords, and a D natural in the Bbmaj7 and Ebmaj7 chords... even though they don't appear inthe actual chord you're playing over, the preceding chords have already set the harmonic environment


if the Cm was part of the following chord sequence:

Eb - Bb7 - Cm - Fm7

then your ear would probably tell you that C Aeolian would be most appropriate, because the Cm is functioning as a vi chord... again, the diatonic second and sixth has been conditioned by the preceding chords


that kind of thing works great for nice straightforward diatonic music... when you get something like a blues/jazz tune where the chords are mostly dominant 7 chords, then your choice of appropriate notes increases dramatically... basically because those dominant chords often give a piece its harmonic momentum not by creating harmonic tension and resolving it to a tonal center like bog standard diatonic music, but by never resolving (or delaying resolving) the harmonic tension... most blues harmony involves circling round and round searching for a resolution that never comes... so as a result, your note choices can be far more ambiguous, provided there's a degree of internal resolution going on

i'll shut up and let someone else talk...

[Jerry J]

Originally Posted by cowsgomoo

generally, yeah... but unfortunately, it ain't quite that simple (it never bloody is!)

at any one time, there'll be what you might call an 'underlying harmonic environment' that conditions what notes will sound 'right' or 'wrong'

(this is in addition to your own personal tastes and other stuff like timbre, believe it or not (a distorted electric guitar can have such rich harmonic content that some notes might or might not work in quite the same way as, say, a marimba))

that harmonic environment is informed by not just the notes of the chord that are being played at that particular time but also of the chords that have just played, and the melody etc...

to use your example, if you encounter a basic Cm chord, and you ask your question 'what do I need here, Dorian, Phrygian or Aeolian?', the most natural or diatonic sounding mode will vary according to what chords preceded it...

if the Cm was part of the following chord sequence:

Bbmaj7 - Ebmaj7 - F7 - Cm

then your ear would probably tell you that C Dorian would be most diatonic, because the Cm is functioning as a ii chord...

the fundamental question 'are the second and sixth major or minor?' has already been answered by the existence of an A natural in the Bbmaj7 and F7 chords, and a D natural in the Bbmaj7 and Ebmaj7 chords... even though they don't appear inthe actual chord you're playing over, the preceding chords have already set the harmonic environment


if the Cm was part of the following chord sequence:

Eb - Bb7 - Cm - Fm7

then your ear would probably tell you that C Aeolian would be most appropriate, because the Cm is functioning as a vi chord... again, the diatonic second and sixth has been conditioned by the preceding chords


that kind of thing works great for nice straightforward diatonic music... when you get something like a blues/jazz tune where the chords are mostly dominant 7 chords, then your choice of appropriate notes increases dramatically... basically because those dominant chords often give a piece its harmonic momentum not by creating harmonic tension and resolving it to a tonal center like bog standard diatonic music, but by never resolving (or delaying resolving) the harmonic tension... most blues harmony involves circling round and round searching for a resolution that never comes... so as a result, your note choices can be far more ambiguous, provided there's a degree of internal resolution going on

i'll shut up and let someone else talk...

Whew! Lots of good stuff here!

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by cowsgomoo

at any one time, there'll be what you might call an 'underlying harmonic environment' that conditions what notes will sound 'right' or 'wrong'

This "environment" is often one key center that is maintained throughout an entire piece of music.

However, it is also common (especially in jazz) to have frequent changes of key center within a song, sometimes even within the same bar. This is sometimes referred to as the "key of the moment".

These are often set up with II-V7-I progressions, but can also be set up in a variety of other ways, such as pivot chords.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by KayCee

This "environment" is often one key center that is maintained throughout an entire piece of music.

However, it is also common (especially in jazz) to have frequent changes of key center within a song, sometimes even within the same bar. This is sometimes referred to as the "key of the moment".

These are often set up with II-V7-I progressions, but can also be set up in a variety of other ways, such as pivot chords.

That's the important thing for the student to start picking up on is spotting key centers. First doing analysis on paper then develop the eye and ear to spot them when playing through some changes. For me I look for V7 chords and where are the going. They resolving or non-resolving? If resolving am I changing keys or are these secondary dominants or ii-V to setup a change. Also that you don't see all these things at once. As you play through the form you piece this info together and start plotting ways to navigate a tune. That's when their solos go from riffs to phrases.

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by DocBop

That's the important thing for the student to start picking up on is spotting key centers. First doing analysis on paper then develop the eye and ear to spot them when playing through some changes. For me I look for V7 chords and where are the going. They resolving or non-resolving? If resolving am I changing keys or are these secondary dominants or ii-V to setup a change. Also that you don't see all these things at once. As you play through the form you piece this info together and start plotting ways to navigate a tune. That's when their solos go from riffs to phrases.

The resolving -vs- non-resolving dom7 (-vs- dom7 tonic or subdominant blues function) are an important distinction, as Doc points out.

As a general rule, a dom7 chord resolving (up a fourth) is going to be some kind of mixolydian scale (which includes a major third, minor seventh, and the "target" perfect fourth in it's scale), or an "altered" scale (a result of the tritone substitution).

A dom7 chord that doesn't resolve up a perfect fourth is almost
always treated as a "Lydian b7" scale. An exception to this would be the blues IV7 chord, typically treated as mixolydian.

[jellymax]

Originally Posted by jiveazzturkey

For example, if we're playing in C7, would I *generally* want to be playing off of C mixolydian mode?

If we're playing in C major, I would want to be playing either C Ionian or Lydian?



The way I've been looking at modes, is to treat them basically as scales that fit well with certain chords (ie. major, minor, dominant, etc.). I haven't looked too much into how they are actually derived from the major scale.

'generally' is a good answer. it would mean that you
were playing diatonically correct to the cord.
this is how it begins. however music is about bending
& or breaking the rules, especially in jazz.
but before you substitute a non diatonic scale over a
chord, you should already be grounded in playing
diatonically first...

[jiveazzturkey]

Thanks all, appreciate the info!

[KayCee]

Here's an example of some possibilities on a secondary dominant 7 chord.

In the key of C, the diatonic II chord would be D-7, normally treated with a dorian minor chord scale. The II chord is of the subdominant family and has a tendency to want to move to the primary dominant 7 chord, in this case G7. The voice leading here would have the root D moving up a fourth to G, and the seventh (C), moving down a half-step to B.

These are the two very strong voice movements in music, BTW, up a fourth or down a half step.

Now to strengthen the II-V7 relationship more, the II-7 is often turned in to a II7 chord by making the third major instead of minor. The major third would want to resolve up a half-step. It then becomes a "secondary dominant" in the key of C.
A secondary dominant is a dominant seventh chord built on a diatonic chord tone (in the C scale in this case) that resolves to a chord built on a diatonic note a fourth above.
The V7 is the is the exception, being the "primary dominant"

This new chord, now a D7 (which as a secondary dominant is called V7/V rather than II7), would use a mixolydian scale in most cases. This mixolydian scale can be altered in a number of ways to add more "half step" relationships to lead into the G7.
They would involve alterations of the second, fifth, or sixth scale degrees. Remembering all the while that the root, major third, and flatted seventh are the defining notes of a dominant 7th chord.

EDIT: BTW, I keep tweaking these posts with additional info, and in an attempt to add clarity.

[jaebee]

^ i think that is one of the best subdominant lessons i have ever had / seen / read

quick question-

if going from the secondary dominant (D7) to the dominant (G7), how should one aim to make the transition.

generally i would ascend the D7, find a common tone, and then ascend from that common tone into the g7, but you were talking about the half step, and altering the D7 scale to accomodate the half step to the G7,

is this to allow for a half step directly up or down to the G, or a half step up or down to a G7 chord tone, or what?

i guess i'm asking what you were talking about when saying to alter the scale in hopes for transition via half steps, do you need to emphasize the transition note prior to transitioning or should it be a passing tone of sorts?

thanks

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by jaebee

i guess i'm asking what you were talking about when saying to alter the scale in hopes for transition via half steps, do you need to emphasize the transition note prior to transitioning or should it be a passing tone of sorts?

Using our D7 to G7 as an example...rather than play the notes (d d e f#) walking up to G, let's say I played (d e f f#) heading towards the G7.

Even if the piano is playing a D7, I'm moving through the f, which is diatonic to C major, but not part of my D mixolydian scale. At the moment that I pass through the f note, I imply a D7 chord with a (+9), of which there are many variations. It could be D7(+9), D7(+9,-9), or D7 alt (which could have b9,#9, b5, #5). Yes, f is a passing note, but every passing note has harmonic implications, even if they are for a very brief moment. (EDIT: Note that if the piano were playing a D-7, my f note would be diatonic, but my f# would be the "passing tone" which implied a new harmony).

Same idea if you walked down from ( a a flat g). The moment that you walk through the "passing tone" (a flat), you imply D7(b5), which generally implies availability of the optional #5, #9, and b9 tensions in the chord.


The next thing that follows when we play the b5 note is the interchangability of the dom7 chords which are a tritone apart (i.e., D7 & Ab7). We end up with D7alt (b9,#9,b5,#5) as a consiquence of playing the ("a" flat) note, and this suggests a "substitute" dom7 chord built on the tritone ("a flat) with a Lydian b7 scale. (Edit: In other words, even if every chordal instrument in the band plays a D7 chord...if you play an Ab (b5) in the bass, you've turned their D7 chord into an Ab7(b9,b5). Bass rules!)

The reason for this interchangability is the common notes in each chord which form the third and seventh degrees. D7 has f# and c notes, which is a signature interval in a dom7 chord. Ab7 has c and f#(Gb) as its third and seventh degrees. Same notes, just inverted.

And remember how I discussed the descending half-step as a very strong voice movement? Well, Ab7 to G7 is ALL descending half-steps.

Hope this is somewhat helpful.

Andy

[KayCee]

I've made a few edits to my last post to make it (hopefully) a little more clear.

With regards to your question about the other alterations that we've created on the D7.

"e flat" note (b9) resolves downward by half-step to d on the G7
"a flat" note (b5) resolves downward by half-step to g on the G7
"f" note (#9) remains unchanged and becomes the 7th on the G7
"a sharp" note (#5) resolves upward by half-step to become the 3rd of the G7.

Not all of these tensions need be present. However, if the "natural 9" is used, the #9 and b9 are not available. If either the #9 or b9 is used, the other is avaiable also.

[Attenergy]

Gentleman ... I know this might not be the thread for this, but I don't know which thread is appropriate for this question. I had a list of arpeggios that mix well with scales ie: major scale - maj / maj maj7 etc. I've lost it and I know someone or a bunch of you wizards can give me that information again. As I am studying my scales, I like to study the arpeggios that coincide with the particular scale. So, for the maj, min, dominant, pentatonic, whole tone, chromatic, melodic minor and whatever other scale is appropriate for jazz music, can you guys please point me in the right direction again. Thanks in advance ... I am going to strap myself in and get ready for the wealth of information I am about to receive!!!!!

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by Attenergy

Gentleman ... I know this might not be the thread for this, but I don't know which thread is appropriate for this question. I had a list of arpeggios that mix well with scales ie: major scale - maj / maj maj7 etc. I've lost it and I know someone or a bunch of you wizards can give me that information again. As I am studying my scales, I like to study the arpeggios that coincide with the particular scale. So, for the maj, min, dominant, pentatonic, whole tone, chromatic, melodic minor and whatever other scale is appropriate for jazz music, can you guys please point me in the right direction again. Thanks in advance ... I am going to strap myself in and get ready for the wealth of information I am about to receive!!!!!

Wow, I think I'll let someone else detail the long answer to your question (or recommend a book). First, I'd focus on the 7 modes of diatonic scales (major, harmonic minor, melodic minor, & harmonic major). Also the 6 of whole tone and 8 of symmetical diminished (whole step, half step). I wouldn't focus on chromatic, pentatonic, or blues scales here.


I would concentrate on arpeggiating the 7th chords (1,3,5,&7) of each mode, then extending the arpeggios through all of the possible tensions (9, 11, & 13).

[Attenergy]

Thanks KayCee for starting this off!! When you say the modes of those scales you mentioned, are you referring to arpeggios or the dorian, aeolian etc?!?!?! I see at the end you mention arpeggios but I want to be clear on what you're saying so I don't guess at what your saying!!! Thanks again!!!

[LeftyLB70P]

Hey guys ----- THIS IS GREAT FEEDBACK!

thanks so much for not spouting off worthless admonitions to 'just go learn', 'just use your ear', and such. DocBop, you set the tone in a great way with your very first sentence "Sounds like you have learned fingering patterns....".

I am in the same boat with wanting to better understand music and this is one of the best threads that I have seen in a looongg time b/c you cats are actually explaining things (NOTE: I value 'just practicing', 'using your ear' etc, but it helps so much to UNDERSTAND).

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by Attenergy

Thanks KayCee for starting this off!! When you say the modes of those scales you mentioned, are you referring to arpeggios or the dorian, aeolian etc?!?!?! I see at the end you mention arpeggios but I want to be clear on what you're saying so I don't guess at what your saying!!! Thanks again!!!

Yep, that's the idea. The other diatonic scales have modes also.
They have names, but most aren't totally universal. Often times, they are descriptive.

For example, the second mode of melodic minor is sometimes called "Dorian b9", but many will just refer to it as "Melodic Minor 2".

[Attenergy]

Thanks again KayCee ... now ... should I practice the modes of all the scales or all the modes of the scale that I am currently working on or practice all the scales then come back to the modes and arpeggios?!?!