Which scales and modes to learn first.

[Exophysical]

Been getting by for almost a decade knowing a bare minumum of scales and blindly wandering out of them and hoping for the best. By this point my method of barely any method usualy results in a realy bizzare choice of notes that make up some lovely (to me) riffs. It also can sometimes fail miserably at the most embarassing moments and any major improvisation wanders along the edge of calamity so I've decided to start learning some scales, so that I may be more scientific in my aproach to not playing them and when I start crossing the line from weird into grabage I can fall back to the appropriate scale. The problem I'm running into is that alot of the scales and modes I'm learning dont seem to be used very often so my question is this.

Which scales and modes will I find most usefull, which ones should I learn first?

[Rod McCaulley]

Learn them in this order: Major,mixo,dorian,aeolyan(natural minor), phrigian, locrian then lydian. That way you only flat one aditional note for each until you get to lydian. Play each in all 12 keys maybe cycle of 5's key order. That way you will learn the shape (patterns) and sound of each. Start them all on the E or A string so you can use a fingering so you don't have to shift except for dorian. You should play the arppegios the same way:major 7,dom.7 minor 7, minor 7 flat 5 maybe add diminished & augmented. That should keep you busy for a while and open up your ears.

[bassandbeyond]

I would approach it like this: assuming you already know basic pentatonics and the major scale, the next most important thing to understand for improvising is chord tones. Learn all the diatonic arpeggios which are derived from the major scale first. Then learn the other common chords which are not diatonic to the major scale (augmented, diminished, minor(Maj7), etc.). Then learn the common upper extensions (9ths, 11ths, 13ths) for each of those chords. This will cover all of the same notes you would get through scale/chord formulas, but in a more musical way, IMHO. Always relate everything you play to the chord you're playing over.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by doryendor

Learn them in this order: Major,mixo,dorian,aeolyan(natural minor), phrigian, locrian then lydian. That way you only flat one aditional note for each until you get to lydian.

Never thought of it this way, makes since to learn them as doryendor said.
Major..... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Mixo.......1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Dorian....1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7
Aeolian...1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Phrygian.1, b2,b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Locrian...1, b2,b3, 4,b5,b6, b7
Lydian....1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7

Let me hitch hike on that - Yes to the order to learn them, however I'm going to take the liberty to put the major modes together and the minor modes together so you can readily see how you could use them in your improvisation..

The piece is Major - three modes to draw from.
Major Ionian, = 1, 2, 3,.. 4, 5, 6, 7 this is home base for major modes
Lydian......... = 1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7 if you want Lydian's mood sharp the 4th --Yep change one note.
Mixo............ = 1, 2, 3,.. 4, 5, 6, b7 if you want mixolydian's mood flat the 7th -- Is that simple or what?

The piece is minor - three modes to draw from. I discount Locrian.
Aeolian = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 this is home base for minor modes
Dorian .= 1, 2, b3, 4, 5,.. 6, b7 If you want Dorian's mood take the 6 to a natural -- Again one note.
Phrygian = 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 if you want Phrygian's mood flat the 2nd -- That's so simple you can use it tomorrow.
Locrian . = 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7 if you want Locrian's tense, dark mood flat 2nd and 5th.

That's paralell modes - the key stays the same and the notes change - I find thinking of them this way makes then much easier to USE in a melodic setting.

Keep in mind we are talking about improvised melody - if we play mode patterns we get trapped in our pattern. Its the use of the modes notes that make the improvisation interesting. I found this helpful; http://books.google.com/books?id=Hty...age&q=&f=false
In a nut shell the major or natural minor scale will produce thousands of melodic phrases - two notes close together (a tone or semi-tone apart) then a leap of at least a 3rd (yes still in scale/mode). If you land on a 1, 3 or 5 feel free to go up scale or down scale for your next phrase (notice how this is no longer a string of notes, but phrases). If you land on the 4 or 6 go down scale and if you land on the 7th go up scale. The 2 is left up to you. That will give you something besides the same ole same ole. If you've got an old keyboard sitting around I found it's easier to practice this on the keyboard then take it to your fretboard after you get a feel for this "leaping" approach.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0iZ1j00wSU
Lot of good information on this video.

Good luck.

[JTE]

I. Do you know the major scale- that is-
A. You know the whole-step and half-step formula for making a major scale
B. You know how to figure out the notes in any major key, using the correct enharmonics
C. You know what it sounds like- you know what the next note will sound like before you play it
D. You can find it and play it over two octaves ascending and descending in any key

II. Do you know how to build the basic chords- that is, you KNOW
A. A major chord is 1 3 5
B. A minor chord is 1 b3 5
C. A 7th chord is 1 3 5 b7
D. A minor 7 is 1 b3 5 b7
E. A major 7 is 1 3 5 7
F. A diminished chord is 1 b3 b5 bb7 (and you understand why it's called the bb7, not the 6)
G. An augmented chord is 1 3 #5

III. You understand and know the chords that come from the scale when you harmonize it- that is you KNOW not only that the chords are:
I Maj7
ii min7
iii min7
IV Maj 7
V 7
vi min7
vii min7 b5 (or half-diminished)
BUT, you know WHY!!!

IV. You can work out how to play the arpeggio over two octaves ascending and descending the chords in any key. You don't have to memorize them (heck, I hate memorization), but you can figure them out and they make sense.

V. You know how a ii V I defines a key center

Then you can start learning and practicing modes. But when you do, do them all from one tonic. Don't learn C Ionian then D Dorian, etc. You have to OWN the differences between them for them to be of any use. And frankly, the way most people explain modes, is stupid and pointless.

If someone tells you to use C Ionian then D Dorian then G Mixolydian for a C Dmin7 G7 progression, they're wrong. Yes, it works. But to put those three chords into separate entities totally obfuscates that those three chords DEFINE the key of C and that you should be thinking of the progression as the key of C instead of three different unrelated chords. Look at the chord tones first.

Now, if you're playing strictly modal stuff, you need to understand the mode just like I say you should know the major scale (see #I up above). If you don't know all that stuff about Lydian, you don't know the mode at all; you're just wiggling your fingers.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by doryendor

Learn them in this order: Major,mixo,dorian,aeolyan(natural minor), phrigian, locrian then lydian. That way you only flat one aditional note for each until you get to lydian. Play each in all 12 keys maybe cycle of 5's key order. That way you will learn the shape (patterns) and sound of each. Start them all on the E or A string so you can use a fingering so you don't have to shift except for dorian. You should play the arppegios the same way:major 7,dom.7 minor 7, minor 7 flat 5 maybe add diminished & augmented. That should keep you busy for a while and open up your ears.

+1

Assuming you start always on the same root I guess?
This is the way to alter the major scale one note at the time. I like this order.
I think it would be good to learn them as well the diatonic way too,

Sly

[M.Wrenn]

Originally Posted by JTE

I. Do you know the major scale- that is-
A. You know the whole-step and half-step formula for making a major scale
B. You know how to figure out the notes in any major key, using the correct enharmonics
C. You know what it sounds like- you know what the next note will sound like before you play it
D. You can find it and play it over two octaves ascending and descending in any key

II. Do you know how to build the basic chords- that is, you KNOW
A. A major chord is 1 3 5
B. A minor chord is 1 b3 5
C. A 7th chord is 1 3 5 b7
D. A minor 7 is 1 b3 5 b7
E. A major 7 is 1 3 5 7
F. A diminished chord is 1 b3 b5 bb7 (and you understand why it's called the bb7, not the 6)
G. An augmented chord is 1 3 #5

III. You understand and know the chords that come from the scale when you harmonize it- that is you KNOW not only that the chords are:
I Maj7
ii min7
iii min7
IV Maj 7
V 7
vi min7
vii min7 b5 (or half-diminished)
BUT, you know WHY!!!

IV. You can work out how to play the arpeggio over two octaves ascending and descending the chords in any key. You don't have to memorize them (heck, I hate memorization), but you can figure them out and they make sense.

V. You know how a ii V I defines a key center

Then you can start learning and practicing modes. But when you do, do them all from one tonic. Don't learn C Ionian then D Dorian, etc. You have to OWN the differences between them for them to be of any use. And frankly, the way most people explain modes, is stupid and pointless.

If someone tells you to use C Ionian then D Dorian then G Mixolydian for a C Dmin7 G7 progression, they're wrong. Yes, it works. But to put those three chords into separate entities totally obfuscates that those three chords DEFINE the key of C and that you should be thinking of the progression as the key of C instead of three different unrelated chords. Look at the chord tones first.

Now, if you're playing strictly modal stuff, you need to understand the mode just like I say you should know the major scale (see #I up above). If you don't know all that stuff about Lydian, you don't know the mode at all; you're just wiggling your fingers.

that just cleared up a lot of confusion on my part, thanks JTE

[Chris K]

This thread shows some interesting ways to learn scales, compliments on that. However, I have serious doubt abouts investing much time into memorizing all that stuff (to not be misunderstood: I already know my scales).

Hearing and recognizing scales by ear is critical. Maybe you'll learn that through practising them on your instrument, but, especially with modes, you should absorb the atmosphere of a piece of music played in, for instance a mixolydian setting. Because if you do so, you will never miss that b7 when it comes by.

Maybe somewhere on the net there is a spot where one can learn to recognize scales by ear.

[Chris K]

Let me add something from a practical point of view. Say, somebody says: hey, I wrote something, giving you a lead sheet, key of C. The first chord is G7. Most of us would play the note G. Some of us would add b,d, or f. Others might just play the scale of C starting on G. But how many of those would think they are actually running up the mixolydian scale of G?

Modes are not for one or two bars. They apply to a whole piece or at least to a section of a piece. So the knowlegde that G7 is 1 -3 -5 -7 of the mixolydian scale on G only gets important if the composer meant a mixolydian atmosphere for (a section of) his composition.

Jazz music based on modes was fashionable for quite some time, and has been very influential. Greates like Miles Davis felt the need for new atmospheres, breaking away from the traditional major/minor stuff. And they certified what they did by saying those scales we use come from the ancient Greeks.

So from that time one everybody started learning modes, but, especially for newbees, let's keep things practical. Try to recognise the tonal atmospheres of the modes and learn a simple way to find the modes if you need them. That should do it.

From a technical point of view I would say that playing major, minor and whole step - half step scales fast and all over the fretboard is more than satisfactory.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by JTE

If someone tells you to use C Ionian then D Dorian then G Mixolydian for a C Dmin7 G7 progression, they're wrong. Yes, it works. But.............. Now, if you're playing strictly modal stuff, you need to understand the mode just like I say you should know the major scale (see #I up above). If you don't know all that stuff about Lydian, you don't know the mode at all; you're just wiggling your fingers.

Yes I thought you were going to say if someone tells you to use C Ionian then D dorian, etc -- run - get away from them as quickly as you can.

If we run C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, etc. all I hear is an octave thing. However if we run C Ionian, C Dorian, C Phrygian, C Lydian I can hear the difference. Course understand most of what we end up hearing comes from the chords under the mode notes. Here is what I hear when the chords help with the phrase:

Ionian is a happy attractive up beat mood.
Dorian is a minor -some say sad I don't hear the sadness I hear an attractive Jazz sound.
Phrygian, is minor used in Metal, gives an Exotic, Spanish sound.
Lydian is major and I have a problem identifying it's mood some say dreamy, I guess so.
Mixolydian is major used a lot in the blues because of the b7 chord use. I hear a Latin, Mexican - not Spanish - Mexican sound.
Aeolian is minor and this is sad.
Locrian is diminished and has a tense and dark sound.

So what mood do you want - an attractive jazz sound, try Dorian - start with the natural minor scale and make the 6th a natural note. Simple as that.

What do you guys hear? Which do you like to use and why? One more question, speak a little about modes and bass, I think of modes being a solo instrument's thing our thing would be to furnish the chord sounds that would produce the overall modal mood.

Thoughts welcomed - I'm still learning.

[Danny Fox]

Ionian through Mixolydian in one position....thanks Jaco

Gmaj
-------------------------------4--5--7---------------
---------------------4--5--7-------------------------
-----------3--5--7-----------------------------------
-3--5--7---------------------------------------------

http://www.myspace.com/bassmandannyfox

[JTE]

Yeah, once you know the major scale inside and out, when you start learning modes, learn them all from the same tonic. There's really little point in learning the typical C Ionian, D Dorian, etc. system. After you own the diatonic major scale (which is the same as Ionian mode), then I'd say learn Mixolydian, but do all the same things I say for the major scale- know what it sounds like, know the structure (and not just "a major scale with a flatted 7, but rather W W H W W H W), etc.

Learning modes from the same tonic (that is, C Mixolydian then C Dorian, etc.) helps you focus on the SOUND of the mode. But then, if you really learn a mode, it's NOT in a specific key because to know a mode or scale means you know it all keys.

John

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by JTE

Yeah, once you know the major scale inside and out, when you start learning modes, learn them all from the same tonic. There's really little point in learning the typical C Ionian, D Dorian, etc. system. After you own the diatonic major scale (which is the same as Ionian mode), then I'd say learn Mixolydian, but do all the same things I say for the major scale- know what it sounds like, know the structure (and not just "a major scale with a flatted 7, but rather W W H W W H W), etc.

Learning modes from the same tonic (that is, C Mixolydian then C Dorian, etc.) helps you focus on the SOUND of the mode. But then, if you really learn a mode, it's NOT in a specific key because to know a mode or scale means you know it all keys.

John

+1
And we shouldn't forget that most of the time we play together with others who play chords... I am sure most of us will easily HEAR the minor 7th in, say Gm7 in the key of C, so we can hardly go wrong in a mixolydian setting, , even if we never studied modes.

So modes are interesting knowlegde and they provide some tools for composition, but that's about it.
Maybe we should keep in mind there's a difference between studying and training. Studying modes is o.k., but training them, IMHO, is not a top priority.

[dave_p]

My .02
once you have the major scale, you already know the modes. my teacher gave it to me like this, and i had all the modes in a day. he explained it using counting.

you have a major scale, start with 1 end on 8(1) the octave. every note is a whole step except from 3-4, and 7-8(1) which are half steps.

all you need to know for the modes is: half step between 3 - 4 and 7 - 8(1).

to play the dorian mode (built from second note of major scale) start counting at 2, end at 2 and the 1/2 steps are between 3-4 and 7-8.

w=whole h=half
major: 1 w 2 w 3 h 4 w 5 w 6 w 7 h 8(1)
dorian: 2 w 3 h 4 w 5 w 6 w 7 h 8(1) w 2
phrygian: 3 h 4 w 5 w 6 w 7 h 8 w 2 w 3
lydian: 4 w 5 w 6 w 7 h 8 w 2 w 3 h 4

myxolidian: start and end on 5. aeolian 6 and locrian 7

[Danny Fox]

I think the main thing is to practice them in all keys from an early stage. It's ok knowing the major modes in one position (i know some guys who've only known the modes of G for years) but the patterns remain the same no matter the key, so practice all.

[::::BASSIST::::]

So if you were to start investing serious time in just ONE scale to start off with what would it be?

Major?

Minor Pentatonic?

other?

I play in a roots rock, surf, rockabilly band so I dont really need to learn the fancier scales at this point.

[Danny Fox]

Originally Posted by ::::BASSIST::::

So if you were to start investing serious time in just ONE scale to start off with what would it be?

Major?

Minor Pentatonic?

other?

I play in a roots rock, surf, rockabilly band so I dont really need to learn the fancier scales at this point.

It's totally up to you really

[dave_p]

the blues scale is the one i get the most mileage out of, by far.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by ::::BASSIST::::

So if you were to start investing serious time in just ONE scale to start off with what would it be?

Major?

Minor Pentatonic?

other?

I play in a roots rock, surf, rockabilly band so I dont really need to learn the fancier scales at this point.

Diatonic major because that'll lead you to everything else. Sure minor pentatonic has some cool stuff you'll use, but without the detailed study (as outlined above) of the major scale, it's still just wiggling your fingers. The major scale will lead you to understaanding chords and basic harmony.

As bassist, our job is to connect the rhythm with the rest of the music and to define the harmony. That means we have to OWN the harmony. Thereforer we gotta know the chords. "Know the chords" means a lot more than just knowing what it's called. It means we have to know what the chord is, what notes are in the chord, what came before, what's coming up, and how those chords relate to each other. Therefore, invest serious time in the major scale.

John

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by JTE

Diatonic major because that'll lead you to everything else. Sure minor pentatonic has some cool stuff you'll use, but without the detailed study (as outlined above) of the major scale, it's still just wiggling your fingers. The major scale will lead you to understaanding chords and basic harmony.

As bassist, our job is to connect the rhythm with the rest of the music and to define the harmony. That means we have to OWN the harmony. Thereforer we gotta know the chords. "Know the chords" means a lot more than just knowing what it's called. It means we have to know what the chord is, what notes are in the chord, what came before, what's coming up, and how those chords relate to each other. Therefore, invest serious time in the major scale.

John

+1

I think as bassist our role is to define harmony as well because we are the foundation of the harmony. So it is important to understand that every note we play have an impact with what is going on up there.

Even if we stick to roots it is important to know what is the scale that define the chord over it and how to connect it musically.

It is easy to identify a bass player that doesn't have the basic knowledge when he or she play.

BTW We are the only musician in the band that can not play wrong note without been notice.

Sly