Scales/Modes-What's the difference?

[Hulktopus]

Originally Posted by David Kaczorowski

As for not looking at D dorian as being related to C major, but rather as it's own tonality; I can appreciate the thought, but I think it also ignores why D dorian has the tonality that it does. It has it's tonality because of it's relationship to the major scale, the tonic, and the dominant. To explain D Dorian simply as a tonality is to only hear half the picture so to speak.

This is how I'm learning them. Once I realized that each mode has a relative major scale, I was able to play them just fine. By playing each mode with a "pedal" tone (C in D Dorian, C in E Phrygian, etc.) or focusing on the note in the name of your mode (D in D Dorian, E in E Phrygian, etc.) while playing the parent scale will allow you to hear the tonal differences.


I Ionian
ii Dorian
III Phrygian
IV Lydian
V Mixolydian
vi Aeolian
VII Locrian

For example, using G as a root while playing within a CMaj scale will be G Mixolydian (highlighted in RED below)

I	ii	III	IV	V	vi	VII
Cb	Db	Eb	Fb	Gb	Ab	Bb
Gb	Ab	Bb	Cb	Db	Eb	F
Db	Eb	F	Gb	Ab	Bb	C
Ab	Bb	C	Db	Eb	F	G
Eb	F	G	Ab	Bb	C	D
Bb	C	D	Eb	F	G	A
F	G	A	Bb	C	D	E
C	D	E	F	G	A	B
G	A	B	C	D	E	F#
D	E	F#	G	A	B	C#
A	B	C#	D	E	F#	G#
E	F#	G#	A	B	C#	D#
B	C#	D#	E	F#	G#	A#
F#	G#	A#	B	C#	D#	E#
C#	D#	E#	F#	G#	A#	B#
G#	A#	B#	C#	D#	E#	F#

[Tupac]

I've always wondered this too.

Scale = Set of notes that sound good together and can be manipulated to make chords ect.

Mode = Set of notes that sound good together and can be manipulated to make chords ect.

What's the difference? I understand how the different modes of the major scale were formed, but in use, they look the same to me.

[Ezmar]

Originally Posted by Tupac

I've always wondered this too.

Scale = Set of notes that sound good together and can be manipulated to make chords ect.

Mode = Set of notes that sound good together and can be manipulated to make chords ect.

What's the difference? I understand how the different modes of the major scale were formed, but in use, they look the same to me.

The way I understand it, a scale 'technically' refers to the stepwise sequence of notes, and a mode 'technically' refers to the set of notes, including, but not limited to, the major and natural minor scales.

Always remember theory comes after the fact. One does not create music through the application of theory, theory comes to exist through the usage and studying of music. This is why I am no longer a music major.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by td1368

I just started learning modes with my instructor this week. Needless to say there is a ton of information to absorb and learn

I did a search on modes but most posts deal with deriving modes and naming modes.
However my question is what is the difference between a scale and a mode? Is a mode just a different form or naming convention?

Basically there is no difference: a mode is a scale and some of the basic scales in our western harmony system like the major scale, the minor harmonic and the melodic minor jazz scales can also produce useful modes from their notes.

What some people don't seem to realize is that when we associate a mode with a chord function within a chords progression, we instantly focus on the right color and the right chord extensions. This provides to the players the instant infos to play the right scales and extensions.

I just don't understand the stubborness of some people here at denying the fact that the modes built from the major scale for example are not associated to......the major scale !!!

[jeffbonny]

Holy triple zombie thread.....
Interesting to see some of the TB greybeards pretty much had this one figured out over a decade ago.

[hoketus]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Except that to be correct and perhaps pedantic, modes don't truly have "parent scales"--they weren't derived by taking sections of the major scale, they were derived as sets of intervals from a starting point, just as the major scale was. Thus, fundamentally, they have no parents, they are their own parents, and they constitute their own tonality.

+1.

Most people are not aware that there was a time when all 7 modes were more near equal in use (excepting Locrian). The others simply fell out of fashion, leaving the Ionian dominated tonal system we know today.

[Snarf]

All you need to do is learn two scales: Major and Minor. From there, the modes just raise or lower some intervals. EZPZ, and the tonality is easy to hear.

[MarkMgibson]

I think I just stepped in to The Twilight Zone!

[hgiles]

Lots of folks use the two terms interchangeably. Generally speaking a scale is a cycle of notes that continues beyond the octave. A mode is generally thought of of the sequence of notes with a definitive starting point and an ending point that's exactly an octave away.

Try learning the modes in this order -- all with a common root.

Lydian
Ionian
Mixolydian
Dorian
Aeolian
Phrygian
Locrian

It'll highlight the differences that you need to know.

Then learn the different modes all within the same scale:

Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian
Locrian

By this time you will have taught yourself the difference between scale and mode.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

What some people don't seem to realize is that when we associate a mode with a chord function within a chords progression, we instantly focus on the right color and the right chord extensions. This provides to the players the instant infos to play the right scales and extensions.

In what way? There are three classic modes that give you a minor 7 arpeggio. So why Dorian instead of Aeolian? Knowing the harmonized major scale and understanding that a ii V I contains notes from the scale of the I hives you all the same information for passing tones PLUS doesn't require shifting from one tonal center to another with each chord change. And that's critical- our job is to define the harmony which requires we tie the chords together instead of making them each a separate entity.

John

[rjmsteel]

Subscribed

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by JTE

In what way? There are three classic modes that give you a minor 7 arpeggio. So why Dorian instead of Aeolian? Knowing the harmonized major scale and understanding that a ii V I contains notes from the scale of the I hives you all the same information for passing tones PLUS doesn't require shifting from one tonal center to another with each chord change. And that's critical- our job is to define the harmony which requires we tie the chords together instead of making them each a separate entity.

John

Thinking about a dorian mode when a min7 functions is the IImin7 in a key tells me that the 6th is major and that is the specific note that makes the dorian sound different then an aeolian mode. I know what are my arpeggio and all the extensions possible on that specific mode also. It gives me the diatonic passing tone as well. It tells me also that i can use a mixolydian bebop lick over that chord if I want to or even a lick build on the I chord. I can use a different root also like the IV or the II to change the harmony a little bit. i can also pair my II with the V and use the bebop scale over the chord sequence either in the bassline or in a solo.

There are all kind of good reasons to use modes and think modes to a certain point, to focus on the actual function of a chord in a key, not just the harmonized major scale because each mode has its own set of extensions, specific notes and avoid notes even when they share the same 4 notes-arpeggio.

I'm sure you know all that stuff and i don't understand that you don't want to accept that some people don't think like you about modes. It is very easy to use in our diatonic system.

[Rockin Mike]

A la mode is when you put ice cream on your pie.

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

Thinking about a dorian mode when a min7 functions is the IImin7 in a key tells me that the 6th is major and that is the specific note that makes the dorian sound different then an aeolian mode.

I understand how you are thinking, but the point is, you're mixing up what dorian really is. Dorian is not the sound of the ii chord in a Major key, dorian is the sound of a min7 chord with a natural 6th being used as the tonic.

So, when you play a ii chord of a major key, you are playing modally in this fashion only: you are in the Ionian mode (i.e., Major mode) playing a ii chord. You aren't in the dorian mode, you are in the Ionian mode. Most musicians would not consider playing in a Major key (i.e., Ionian mode) to fall into the category of "modal music."

I realize that the way you are thinking about this allows you to play the correct notes, and as a tool, that's fine. But the important distinction here is that "modal" music based on a min7 chord is dependent upon that min7 being the i, not the ii, iii, or vi.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

I understand how you are thinking, but the point is, you're mixing up what dorian really is. Dorian is not the sound of the ii chord in a Major key, dorian is the sound of a min7 chord with a natural 6th being used as the tonic.

So, when you play a ii chord of a major key, you are playing modally in this fashion only: you are in the Ionian mode (i.e., Major mode) playing a ii chord. You aren't in the dorian mode, you are in the Ionian mode. Most musicians would not consider playing in a Major key (i.e., Ionian mode) to fall into the category of "modal music."

I realize that the way you are thinking about this allows you to play the correct notes, and as a tool, that's fine. But the important distinction here is that "modal" music based on a min7 chord is dependent upon that min7 being the i, not the ii, iii, or vi.

Who says you have to use modes exclusively in a modal piece?
The dorian mode comes from the 2nd degree of the major scale, so when I see a chord functioning as a 2nd degree in a major key, then I can play and think as a dorian mode if I want to, since this is exactly where it is coming from

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

Who says you have to use modes exclusively in a modal piece?

Using this same line of reasoning, spinach shall now be referred to as a roast beef sandwich.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

Using this same line of reasoning, spinach shall now be referred to as a roast beef sandwich.

YES a roast beef sandwich with spinach in it !!

That is exactly it

[Sloop John D]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

Who says you have to use modes exclusively in a modal piece?
The dorian mode comes from the 2nd degree of the major scale, so when I see a chord functioning as a 2nd degree in a major key, then I can play and think as a dorian mode if I want to, since this is exactly where it is coming from

This is how I think about modes as well. Knowing that the ii chord is built off the Dorian mode gives you an incredible amount of information about the context and harmonic possibilities.

Sure, you could just leave modes out altogether and figure out some other way to think about it, but there are so many people who think about music in different ways that there really doesn't seem to be any point in criticizing someone else's method.

Some people might remember by the chord instead of the mode -- ii has a maj 6, iii has a flat 2 -- some people might draw comparisons to the major scale and minor scale -- ii is the minor scale with a raised 6, IV is the major scale with a raised 4 -- and some people might just go by the key -- Key of C major, ii has a b natural.

There's so many ways you could slice it, I don't know why you can't think about it in terms of modes. For me, developing a thought process based on modes was logical because I learned the major scale and the modes of the major scale before I started working on harmony, so when I was trying to figure out the extensions of the ii chord, I already had a context to build from. The ii chord is built off the Dorian mode, I don't have to learn the extensions of the ii chord because I already know them.

As a bassist, you have to be very aware of the underlying chords at all time, so it's helpful to have some method of keeping that all straight in your head as you're moving from chord to chord. Modes help me do that.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by Sloop John D

This is how I think about modes as well. Knowing that the ii chord is built off the Dorian mode gives you an incredible amount of information about the context and harmonic possibilities.

Sure, you could just leave modes out altogether and figure out some other way to think about it, but there are so many people who think about music in different ways that there really doesn't seem to be any point in criticizing someone else's method.

Some people might remember by the chord instead of the mode -- ii has a maj 6, iii has a flat 2 -- some people might draw comparisons to the major scale and minor scale -- ii is the minor scale with a raised 6, IV is the major scale with a raised 4 -- and some people might just go by the key -- Key of C major, ii has a b natural.

There's so many ways you could slice it, I don't know why you can't think about it in terms of modes. For me, developing a thought process based on modes was logical because I learned the major scale and the modes of the major scale before I started working on harmony, so when I was trying to figure out the extensions of the ii chord, I already had a context to build from. The ii chord is built off the Dorian mode, I don't have to learn the extensions of the ii chord because I already know them.

As a bassist, you have to be very aware of the underlying chords at all time, so it's helpful to have some method of keeping that all straight in your head as you're moving from chord to chord. Modes help me do that.

Good to know I'm not the only one

[ics1974]

Do the following test and you will understand the modes.
Modes are just the different sounds of a scale being played against a chord or chord progression.

In the Key of C you have the following chords C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim
You will need a looper or a recording device.

Since we are in the key of C we will use ONLY the C major scale.
Record into your looper a C chord. Play the C major scale in any order. You have Ionian sound
Record into your looper a Dm chord. Play the C major scale over it in any order. You have Dorian sound.
Record into your looper a Em chord. Play the C major scale over it in any order. You have Phrygian sound.
Record into your looper a F chord. Play the C major scale over it in any order. You have Lydian sound.
Record into your looper a G chord. Play the C major scale over it in any order. You have Mixolydian sound.
Record into your looper a Am chord. Play the C major scale over it in any order. You have Aeolian sound.
Record into your looper a Bdim chord. Play the C major scale over it in any order. You have Locrian sound.

It's important to note you don't have to play the scale in any order. A mode is simply the major scale played over certain chords that in turn produce a mood. like happy (Ionian) or dark (Aeolian)
For instance if you play the C major scale (in any order) over a C chord like above you will have the Ionian sound.
If you play the same C major scale (in any order) over a Am chord you will have the Aeolian Sound. Am is the sixth chord in the key of C.
It is important also to note that the Root chord in a progression (Root chord being the tonal center i.e. what sounds like home) also defines the mode.
So if the chord progression is C, Am, F, G and C sounds like home, you can play the C major scale over all the chords and it will maintain the C Ionian (happy) sound over all the chords because the C chord is what feels like home.