Scales and Noodling

[bassinplace]

To learn theory, I think practicing scales is one of the best things to do. To foster creativity, I think noodling is one of the best things to do. How come in my trevails on the web I hear so many folks that seem to nay say these methods, expert and novice alike? They seem like some of the most productive routes to take as far as I can tell. What do y'all think?

[onosson]

I think I agree, at least as far as my own path has gone. Over the past few years I've really been working on my keyboard development, and I find what you say applies there too.

[wideyes]

Noodling is underrated IMO.

[mambo4]

I think you have left out some context. Practicing scales is not inherently a bad thing for learning theory, in fact up front it is necessary. But the meat of theory has as much to do with harmony as it does melody. Beyond a certain point, (once a solid understanding of intervals and diatonic scale construction is achieved), there is more value in exploring chord constrution and relationships than endlessly pursuing new scales and modes.

It is in this context that practicing scales can be considered less desirable.

"Noodling" will be a valuable as you make it.

[onosson]

I've always thought of chords and scales in much the same way, differing mainly in terms of the time dimension (on a guitar or keyboard polyphony is more used, vs. bass where single notes are more the norm). I guess starting on keyboards I might have a different take on it than most - I never did find much use for modes, for example.

[bassinplace]

Originally Posted by mambo4

I think you have left out some context. Practicing scales is not inherently a bad thing for learning theory, in fact up front it is necessary. But the meat of theory has as much to do with harmony as it does melody. Beyond a certain point, (once a solid understanding of intervals and diatonic scale construction is achieved), there is more value in exploring chord constrution and relationships than endlessly pursuing new scales and modes.

It is in this context that practicing scales can be considered less desirable.

"Noodling" will be a valuable as you make it.

So you mean things like cycle of fifths, and chord substitutions and things like that? That is something I have yet to delve further into. The cycle I've pretty much got from a theoretical standpoint, but things like chord substitutions are a bit above my comprehension at the moment. I think noodling is great fun and a great way to develop your personal style. But why do you think there's a tendency to steer people away from that kinda stuff (scales, jamming)?

[JimmyM]

because scales sound like crap in the context of playing actual music, and noodling, while fun, implies a lack of direction and a sense of not knowing what you're doing...just throwing stuff at the wall to see if it sticks.

regarding scales, while you need to know how scales work in order to form chords, learning how chords work will serve you much better than using scales to play. scales limit your note choices and very often sound like you're just playing scales (translation: boring your audience), while a chordal approach allows you to use every note in the chromatic scale while providing you with reference points for keeping the harmony of the chord you're playing.

as for noodling, music is, by and large, throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks, but the more you know about how all the notes work together, the more focused your noodling becomes, and the better chance you have of finding the right notes to play in the shortest amount of time. everybody noodles...that's what writing songs and riffs is about. but for me, i prefer to noodle efficiently.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by mambo4

I think you have left out some context. Practicing scales is not inherently a bad thing for learning theory, in fact up front it is necessary. But the meat of theory has as much to do with harmony as it does melody. Beyond a certain point, (once a solid understanding of intervals and diatonic scale construction is achieved), there is more value in exploring chord construction and relationships than endlessly pursuing new scales and modes.It is in this context that practicing scales can be considered less desirable.
"Noodling" will be a valuable as you make it.

As we play chord tones, chord tone exercises instead of scale exercises seem the way to go, i.e. noodle chord tones. Experimenting with the many ways we can/could move from one chord to the next seems like a worth while exercise, i.e. secondary dominants, chromatic runs, etc. Case in point, when we see a chord like F#m7b5 how would you handle that? Two chords in the same measure how would you handle that? Yes, I know it depends.... But, its things like this we should be woodshedding.

IMO modes and scales are a rite of passage thing, something we should know about, but, in our World chord tones rule. A study of chord construction, bass lines and how chords harmonize the melody would be time well spent.

[beyondat]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

As we play chord tones, chord tone exercises instead of scale exercises seem the way to go, i.e. noodle chord tones. Experimenting with the many ways we can/could move from one chord to the next seems like a worth while exercise, i.e. secondary dominants, chromatic runs, etc. Case in point, when we see a chord like F#m7b5 how would you handle that? Two chords in the same measure how would you handle that? Yes, I know it depends.... But, its things like this we should be woodshedding. I.

Could you recommend any books or links for chord tone exercises?
Thanks

[onosson]

Re-reading this thread, I guess it depends on what you mean by "scales" and "noodling".

For myself, knowing scales doesn't necessarily mean playing a given scale up and down in note order. Rather, it means thinking of the notes, their positions, and their fingerings in a given context. And "noodling" to me means picking and choosing from amongst appropriate notes ... although usually in a context where you're playing to music "in your head" rather than working on something together with other musicians.

Am I way off here??

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by beyondat

Could you recommend any books or links for chord tone exercises?
Thanks

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/conten...eat-sheet.html scroll down a page.

Gotta go, will check back later.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by bassinplace

To learn theory, I think practicing scales is one of the best things to do. To foster creativity, I think noodling is one of the best things to do. How come in my trevails on the web I hear so many folks that seem to nay say these methods, expert and novice alike? They seem like some of the most productive routes to take as far as I can tell. What do y'all think?

I think the underlying premise is flawed. Practicing scales doesn't do much to help you learn theory. KNOWING a scale is way different from being able to execute it on the neck. Understanding how it's built, owning what it sounds like, and being able to grok the chords that come from that scale are what "knowing" the scale is about. But just zipping up and down the neck with scales doesn't do much for learning any useful theory.

Second, just "noodling", as I understand the verb, is so far from being conducive to creativity that it's silly. To foster creativity, you need to start without the instrument and just dig into the music you hear in your head. From there you rely on your skills as an instrumentalist to get the music onto the bass, and your knowledge of theory to help you shape it up- as long as you don't let the theory get in the way.

John

[bassinplace]

Originally Posted by onosson

Re-reading this thread, I guess it depends on what you mean by "scales" and "noodling".

For myself, knowing scales doesn't necessarily mean playing a given scale up and down in note order. Rather, it means thinking of the notes, their positions, and their fingerings in a given context. And "noodling" to me means picking and choosing from amongst appropriate notes ... although usually in a context where you're playing to music "in your head" rather than working on something together with other musicians.

Am I way off here??

When I refer to practicing scales, I mean physically playing them to see how they're shaped, and how the notes within the scale relate to each other. When I say noodling, I mean taking that knowledge gained from studying the scale and putting it aside, and just feeling the music and seeing where it takes you, like jimmym said, "seeing what sticks". I've personally discovered a lot of good useful stuff that way.

Then there's playing with my band, in which I do neither one of these things. I'm pretty much beginner level at bass, which I'm sure is apparent, and when with my band, which is a blues rock format, I pretty much stick to pedaling roots and running through blues scales. It works, and once in awhile I'll go outside of the box, just to see where it takes me, but for the most part, I stick to the basic structure. But I find these things I do seem to help with my overall understanding of playing. I do need to get more into chord construction. Kinda focusing on sight reading right now more than anything. I figure if I get good at that, I'll be able to see how a lot of chords work through transcription.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by bassinplace

When I refer to practicing scales, I mean physically playing them to see how they're shaped, and how the notes within the scale relate to each other. When I say noodling, I mean taking that knowledge gained from studying the scale and putting it aside, and just feeling the music and seeing where it takes you, like jimmym said, "seeing what sticks". I've personally discovered a lot of good useful stuff that way.

Then there's playing with my band, in which I do neither one of these things. I'm pretty much beginner level at bass, which I'm sure is apparent, and when with my band, which is a blues rock format, I pretty much stick to pedaling roots and running through blues scales. It works, and once in awhile I'll go outside of the box, just to see where it takes me, but for the most part, I stick to the basic structure. But I find these things I do seem to help with my overall understanding of playing. I do need to get more into chord construction. Kinda focusing on sight reading right now more than anything. I figure if I get good at that, I'll be able to see how a lot of chords work through transcription.

sight reading and chord construction are two different skills. you can read and still not know the first thing about chords. i strongly urge you not to put off learning it.

btw, i think you're confusing the term "sight reading," which is reading a chart for the first time, with just plain "reading," which sounds to me more like what you're doing.

i also highly recommend getting a teacher who knows about jazz concepts and applying them to bass. that will help you get some more focus to what you're doing. you're on the right track by your willingness to learn academically, but i feel like you're making a few unqualified assumptions along the way and maybe don't know the best path to follow. if you can swing it, a good teacher will get you even more on the good foot.

[dalkowski]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

i also highly recommend getting a teacher who knows about jazz concepts and applying them to bass. that will help you get some more focus to what you're doing. you're on the right track by your willingness to learn academically, but i feel like you're making a few unqualified assumptions along the way and maybe don't know the best path to follow. if you can swing it, a good teacher will get you even more on the good foot.

This. Best thing you can do to bring your development into focus.

[onosson]

I totally agree about chordal knowledge being important ... but I'm kind of at a loss how someone could get skilled at reading and have knowledge of scales, and yet "still not know the first thing about chords". It's an exaggeration, but surely these things all develop hand in hand? I'm trying really hard to imagine being able to sightread a chart and yet not see the relationships between scales : note choices : chords.

[onosson]

P.S. I might add that, in addition to jazz theory, classical theory can be a real eye-opener. I had girlfriend who was a cellist, doing her B.A. when we were together, and I learned a ton sitting with her at coffee shops while she did her homework - working on harmony, writing counterpoint, etc. Awesome stuff!

[Skitch it!]

Practising scales, chord tone theory/substitution/whatever is useful, more like essential. But as far as my own perception of theory applies, internalise it after analysing it, get to the point where your not even considering which scale, which degree, which tension and resolution. Your perception of where your going next is in hearing things forward, playing what you hear. This is a running battle for every musician I think, to internalise all the possibilities and use them in mood context.

I don't believe that Wes Montgomery had formal theory tuition, that's quite scary considering what he played. Coltrane could solo for 45min+ and own, I bet he wasn't thinking about scales though.

Do them, then make them your own, I'd advise as much time working on your aural skills, this is the aspect that set's players apart imo.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by onosson

I totally agree about chordal knowledge being important ... but I'm kind of at a loss how someone could get skilled at reading and have knowledge of scales, and yet "still not know the first thing about chords". It's an exaggeration, but surely these things all develop hand in hand? I'm trying really hard to imagine being able to sightread a chart and yet not see the relationships between scales : note choices : chords.

you still have to learn how chords are formed for it to be of any use to you.

[bassinplace]

Originally Posted by JTE

I think the underlying premise is flawed. Practicing scales doesn't do much to help you learn theory. KNOWING a scale is way different from being able to execute it on the neck. Understanding how it's built, owning what it sounds like, and being able to grok the chords that come from that scale are what "knowing" the scale is about. But just zipping up and down the neck with scales doesn't do much for learning any useful theory.

Second, just "noodling", as I understand the verb, is so far from being conducive to creativity that it's silly. To foster creativity, you need to start without the instrument and just dig into the music you hear in your head. From there you rely on your skills as an instrumentalist to get the music onto the bass, and your knowledge of theory to help you shape it up- as long as you don't let the theory get in the way.

John

I think it's the word "noodling" that causes a misnuderstanding in what I meant here. I mean playing what you feel, being creative, without being analytical, just letting it come to and through you.