The search for 'deep' tone

megadan · #1 06-01-2009, 01:28 PM

I'm not really sure what forum to put this in, because I'm not really sure where the root cause lies... amps, cabs, strings, pickups...?? Separate forums for all!

In any case I wonder if you can help solve or comment on a problem I seem to be having.

I find that despite many amps, many basses, and many cabs, I have always lacked a fundamentally deep tone. And I'm not talking about ultra deep sub bass - I'm talking about E string. I read threads on here about people looking for a nice deep B, or even low F#'s and C's (!) and I can't even get a deep E! So I'm a little lost.

It's hard to describe, but here's my attempt: when you play an open A string, you can hear that's it going "all the way" - fundamental plus harmonics in a natural and recognizable proportion. But attempting to get that same sound from the E string, it seems like the amp is just not delivering. You can hear the harmonics, but there seems to be a strong lack of fundamental, and the E just doesn't have as much punch, attack, presence, etc. It feels... flubby, I guess.

As a result of this being the case for many years, through multiple gear changes (see my profile if you're curious, but suffice to say I've had professional gear at least once) I pretty much understand that when it's time to play an 'E', it's 7th fret A string. That's just where it is.

So what I am struggling to figure out is, where is this problem coming from? And is it common?

I don't think it's my amp: GK1001RB. By all accounts, this head has plently of volume, plently of headroom, and a design standard that reflects bass playing in general. It has a 5+ string button (which I currently have engaged, which improves but does not rectify the situation) so you think this amp is designed for deep notes.

It could be the cab, but it's hard to say. The 610HLF is ported, which should mean a lower frequency response than, say, the 810. Is this cab capable of delivering a low E with authority?

It might be the bass. Again, it shouldn't be, but who knows? A MM Stingray has an active preamp and is a very popular brand. Surely a professional bass like this can deliver all the low notes it should. Likewise, a Ric 4003 is a damned expensive bass, and it really ought to be capable of putting out 40hz, no?

The only final factor is technique. I, for one, am well aware that 'tone is in the hands.' I agree whole heartedly. My tone sounds like me, and when other people play my gear, they sound totally different. Is it possible that my fingers just can't deliver that low E?

I've had only a single clue so far in my journal: At one point, a G&L L-2000 passed through my hands. Ultimately, it moved on - too heavy, band mates thought it was ugly, had too many basses with sentimental attachments, so it moved on. But while I had it, it had 'that sound' - that deep, clear, tight sound on the E string that I had never really heard before.

But who knows, maybe some other factor was in play, maybe it was the strings, the setup, the impedance?? There are just too many factors.

Where does deep tone come from? Is it unrealistic to expect a full, deep E string on professional gear?

COOL AND DEADLY · #2 06-01-2009, 01:34 PM

A MM is a great bass, but they are known for cutting mids more than deep tone. Try using flatwound strings and using the eq on your amp. Cut the highest mids, boost the bass to about three, and the treble to one. What cab are you using is it a combo? Two fifteen inch speakers are ideal for a very dark tone. Put the cab directly on the floor. No casters, stands etc.

COOL AND DEADLY · #3 06-01-2009, 01:35 PM

Oh yeah, play with your right hand close to the neck and away from the bridge too.

megadan · #4 06-01-2009, 01:41 PM

Interesting that you say that... I can get a very BASSY tone on the Stingray by rolling the bass control way up, and plucking at the neck. Very low, bassy, regae type tone. But it's not really what I'm after, it's just sort of a big blob of bass. What it seems to lack is a punchy low E fundamental. There's no evenness, even playing with a pick consistently across different strings. Also doing this sort of blows out the tone of the rest of the strings... ack!

fullrangebass · #5 06-01-2009, 01:44 PM

Thicker strings (flat preferably) and pickups with deep tone (Villex pickups for example), will get you rolling to the DEEP tone ballpark. Then it's the amp (preamp, EQ and 12" or 15" speakers; no tweeter please) to be able to project the deep tone.

Jim Nazium · #6 06-01-2009, 01:51 PM

Hmm. The Stingray is a high quality instrument; it's been years since I played one but I never thought it lacked any punch from the E string. Your amp & cab certainly sound up to the task. Can you tell us what brand & gauge strings you're using?

Fetusyolk · #7 06-01-2009, 01:55 PM

Man, Pbass. pbass pbass pbass
or a bass with a PJ config.

elgecko · #8 06-01-2009, 01:58 PM

You've mentioned everything except what kind of strings you use. They can have HUGE impact on your sound.

FreddyB · #9 06-01-2009, 02:01 PM

If your pickups are height adjustable, try adjusting the side of the pickup closest to the E string to where it's a bit closer. This would certainly give you more signal from the E string and if it works, it's a cheap fix. I've played a MM Stingray at the shops and haven't really found them lacking in low end response, but the number of variables is astounding as to why you wouldn't have that "clear, tight, and deep" tone. Experimenting at the shops with your guitar might give you a better answer or having it setup by a pro (if you're not familiar with how to set a bass up) to get the sound you're after.

One other possibility is some sort of "electrical" trouble in the preamp and/or some component in circuitry from the pickups, such as a capacitor that has changed value, etc.

Good luck...

megadan · #10 06-01-2009, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elgecko

You've mentioned everything except what kind of strings you use. They can have HUGE impact on your sound.

You're right, I touched on strings but didn't mention what I was using. I'm currently using Super Slinkies, 40 - 100. I've also used DR Hibeams of the same gauge, and wasn't really impressed.
A higher guage isn't really an option for me, as I have pain in both wrists all ready, and am trying to keep any pressure and stress on them to a minimum.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreddyB

If your pickups are height adjustable, try adjusting the side of the pickup closest to the E string to where it's a bit closer. This would certainly give you more signal from the E string and if it works, it's a cheap fix. I've played a MM Stingray at the shops and haven't really found them lacking in low end response, but the number of variables is astounding as to why you wouldn't have that "clear, tight, and deep" tone. Experimenting at the shops with your guitar might give you a better answer or having it setup by a pro (if you're not familiar with how to set a bass up) to get the sound you're after.

One other possibility is some sort of "electrical" trouble in the preamp and/or some component in circuitry from the pickups, such as a capacitor that has changed value, etc.

Good luck...

Thanks. I have messed with pickup height before but it's a tricky thing. Too close to the strings, and the magnets will actually weaken the tone. Does anyone know... obviously pulling the pickup away will lower the volume - but that's what preamps are for. Any correlation to frequency response or 'feel' with lower or higher pickups? Maybe being TOO close to the strings could be just as bad as too far away.

Dogbertday · #11 06-01-2009, 02:13 PM

the truth is that we hear the first harmonic much more than we hear the Fundamental on the E string. There are however a few tricks I use to bring out the tight bottom end (haha get it?)

the first is to mute the low open string with my left hand. (you could also tie a bandana or something around the nut for the same effect.)

The Second only works on passive basses for as far as I know, but thanks to the thread on how passive volume pick-ups effect tone and emphasized overtones, I've found that on My MIM PBass I can roll the volume and tone back a hair and It creates a nice pillowy tight tone.

you could try cutting back the highs a hair and turning up the volume... boosting lows generally has a not so great effect IME

HogieWan · #12 06-01-2009, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fetusyolk

Man, Pbass. pbass pbass pbass
or a bass with a PJ config.

P is known for a great fundamental

elgecko · #13 06-01-2009, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by megadan

You're right, I touched on strings but didn't mention what I was using. I'm currently using Super Slinkies, 40 - 100. I've also used DR Hibeams of the same gauge, and wasn't really impressed.
A higher guage isn't really an option for me, as I have pain in both wrists all ready, and am trying to keep any pressure and stress on them to a minimum.

40-100 is a little on the light side...not the best gauge to get strong fundamentals with. Too bad you can't go heavier, the La Bella Jamerson set has obscene amounts of fundamental.

megadan · #14 06-01-2009, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HogieWan

P is known for a great fundamental

Indeed, but specifically about it? I'm never really been a P-bass fan, all though lord knows maybe I've just never played the right one... but if the P bass was the only bass that delivered a full low E you'd think we'd all be playing them

I think I will experiment with strings, though... maybe not a heavier guage, but different brands might have different results.
Any other suggestions, after Super Slinkies and Hibeams? I've tried flats before, and while I liked them just fun, my band did not. Took away all the nice growl they liked on the bass. Can't say I disagreed, I just liked how smooth they were.

Mr_Sore_Fingerz · #15 06-01-2009, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by megadan

You're right, I touched on strings but didn't mention what I was using. I'm currently using Super Slinkies, 40 - 100. I've also used DR Hibeams of the same gauge, and wasn't really impressed.
A higher guage isn't really an option for me, as I have pain in both wrists all ready, and am trying to keep any pressure and stress on them to a minimum..

Yeah that would be your problem right there lol

Try using some nickel-plated strings or better yet some coated ones (I like elixirs) and make sure you're covering your bases on amps and cabs to ensure you're getting the most out of your bass. I would say that the strings have a lot to do with your sound issues though.

DudeistMonk · #16 06-01-2009, 03:33 PM

Could also be the cab...I bought an ACME LowB-4 with 4 subs, a mid and tweeter...and the subs are configured to deliver on the lows while still having the punch of a 10 inch (hence the mid to cover for them in that range) and they do. Much more fundamental then any of the other cabs I've tried. You should check them out if you can't solve your problem. The sounds is also disturbingly clean though.

Metal Mitch · #17 06-01-2009, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by megadan

I'm not really sure what forum to put this in, because I'm not really sure where the root cause lies... amps, cabs, strings, pickups...??

It's hard to describe, but here's my attempt: when you play an open A string, you can hear that's it going "all the way" - fundamental plus harmonics in a natural and recognizable proportion. But attempting to get that same sound from the E string, it seems like the amp is just not delivering. You can hear the harmonics, but there seems to be a strong lack of fundamental, and the E just doesn't have as much punch, attack, presence, etc. It feels... flubby, I guess.

So what I am struggling to figure out is, where is this problem coming from? And is it common?

I'm glad you brought this up. I've experienced this problem on a number of basses. Some I've returned the next day after buying due to this problem. It happens on bolt-ons and neck-throughs, 4's and 5's. On a 5er, the E will be ok and you hear about the "weak B string". The Ric boys complain about their "dead E string" and think it's a Ric problem. It doesn't matter what kind of bass it is or how many strings it has, it's always the lowest string.

Personally I believe it's a very common problem, that can happen on any bass, regardless of brand name, construction type, or how many strings it has. And I would put this in the SETUP forum.

In cases where I've been able to resolve it, it's been a witness point issue. When most people think of witness point, they think of the one at the bridge saddle. Which certainly needs to be looked at. But many people also overlook the other witness point at the nut slot. If the nut is high enough, you can "set" the witness point there the same way you would do it at the bridge saddle. By pushing down on the string with a BIC lighter.

(insert your choice of overpriced StewMac or other boutique tool here)

In some cases I had to file the bridge saddle. The nut slot should also be carefully examined and filed (or filled) if necessary. These areas can have a huge effect on the tone of a bass, and are largely ignored by most players.