Seeking The Elusive Groove....

[teedub]

I highly recommend this one-page article as a compliment to Jauqo III-X's Essence Of The Groove lessons.

It can be found on the last page of the August '06 Bass Player mag, and is written by Oz DuSoleil, who studied with TB's own Jauqo III-X.

He speaks about speaking to, and playing along with very skilled drummers to help understand groove. This is something that I can very much relate to, as I always feel that I play (and groove) much better with excellent drummers. It's a very relaxing experience.

I can scan it later this evening and add it to this thread, if you all would like. It's brief, but would be very helpful to those that find themselves struggling to lock-in with a particular riff, song, or group.

[teedub]

Here it is!

Oz DuSoleil's "Seeking The Elusive Groove"

[Mark Wilson]

I'm going to add in another article if you don't mind.

Stew McKinsey's "Creating the Groove"

haha. I wonder how many links i've posted to Stew's site?
I think ya owe me Stew! haha


-Mark

[teedub]

Thanks Mark, that was a great read! Very nice!

[Correlli]

great read. cheers

[Garry Goodman]

Originally Posted by Mark Wilson

I'm going to add in another article if you don't mind.

Stew McKinsey's "Creating the Groove"

haha. I wonder how many links i've posted to Stew's site?
I think ya owe me Stew! haha


-Mark

This reply isn't directed at you Mark, or Stew. Forgetting that I know Stew and just reading the article "Creating the Groove ", I would think it was an abstract concept. The funny thing is that the article never does explaing anything about how to create a groove.

I've had to create the groove on a gig the same day a relatve died, the same night I was sick etc. Mental distractions are always there. The groove is a very tangible item.

Creating the "Groove" is an exact science. There is no guessing, approximations, or almosts. You can pratice with a drummer 24 hours a day but it won't change a thing.There is nothing elusive about it.

Unless each musician has learned to validate his time center, he can't "lock" to anyone.

Groove is the fabric that maked us want to move,dance etc. It is created out of an awareness of how to interact with a time center that all musicians playing together agree upon.

The musician must know how to play with a metronome. Each rhythmic sub-division and variation needs to be played at all tempos using a metronome as a constant. It's hard work,but without really knowing how to play whole,half,quarter,eighth sixteen and triplet figures with the metronome- you play by guessing. Many players claim to be "masters" and posture up big time, but they can't groove to save their life. I am hurting for the new player who gets distracted by these "wanna be" bass clinicians.

Groove is based on the original "oom-pah". The basic down beat on 1 and 3. With that firmly established, everything else will evolve out of that, even the fine examples in Jauqo's book. If one does not take the time to learn and play the basic grooves for quarter, eighth, sixteenth and triplet feels, one will never learn to groove.

I think groove is like riding a bicycle. Once you learn to balance, you can ride. Your "balance" in creating the groove is in learning how to play with a metronome or click track. Every track on my MySpace page was recorded using a click track.

So once you've learned to balance on the bike and start riding , you can go lots of places.When you hear someone who can't quite get their balance yet telling others how to ride a bicycle across country........

So there are people who can give one the steps needed to be taken so you can create the groove . It's a definite blueprint tha needs to be followed step by step. It takes work. Once you "lock in", nothing else feels like it, and you won't be able to tolerate musicians who haven't validated their time center.

[lakiehelena]

Garry,
Your words unearthed memories of countless hours spent practicing trumpet to a metronome ... there are many similarities between trumpet and bass in terms of grooving ... I don't know why I never made the connection before! I think it's made worse for some of us with a good "sense" of time (read: good guessers), we get away with it, especially at the beginning -- because we're not very good yet and it's quite likely that the others we're playing with have not validated their time center, either.

What I have found, however, is as my skills improve, the inability to lock in with 100% accuracy is emerging as a huge obstacle to playing with other players that have done the work. For instance, where I notice many bassists tend to be "late" to the party, when I listened to recent recordings of my playing, I discovered that I'm over-eager and tend to get to the beat slightly before my drummer. Eep! It was so subtle, until I listened to the recording, I had no idea!

I'm confident that if I go back to the metronome and break the note lengths down, I'll not be late or early but spot on time.

Thanks so much for the lesson! Helena

[Garry Goodman]

I was fired from a session for having a poor sense of groove in my younger years. It was a devistating blow to my career and it burst my "bubble" because it was for a major artist on a major label. Now,I know how to play with other musicians who have validated their time and can say I can "groove" and together we create the "magic carpet".

I stopped my life and took two courses that took two years for me to complete because I had to negotiate with the metronome. An Electronic one. It required ( and still does) discipline to do it . Nobody wants to give up the secret, but it is easier said than done. I can't believe there are bass players out there who haven't validated their time center charging people money for their "clinics".

There is a specific sensation that occurs when we are "in the pocket" and it's like hitting the "bull's eye". Once you have achieved this, anywhere you go in any playing situation, you will always groove.

Instead of writing a bunch of flowery words, I would say go and buy an electronic metronome (no wind ups!!!!!!! ) set it to about 80 bpm, and practice playing quarter notes on one pitch for as long as you can stand it. Record your bass and the metronome. Listen back and see if the two are together or off. Muting the string helps. This is a building block to grooving. Then, I feel you will get the most out of a book like Jauqo's . Put on the metronome with everything you practice. If it annoys you, then you need to learn to listen to it and include it as part of your fingers, string and rhythm. Embrace it, it is your best friend.

[Garry Goodman]

Originally Posted by neusergrrl

Garry,
Your words unearthed memories of countless hours spent practicing trumpet to a metronome ... there are many similarities between trumpet and bass in terms of grooving ... I don't know why I never made the connection before! I think it's made worse for some of us with a good "sense" of time (read: good guessers), we get away with it, especially at the beginning -- because we're not very good yet and it's quite likely that the others we're playing with have not validated their time center, either.

What I have found, however, is as my skills improve, the inability to lock in with 100% accuracy is emerging as a huge obstacle to playing with other players that have done the work. For instance, where I notice many bassists tend to be "late" to the party, when I listened to recent recordings of my playing, I discovered that I'm over-eager and tend to get to the beat slightly before my drummer. Eep! It was so subtle, until I listened to the recording, I had no idea!

I'm confident that if I go back to the metronome and break the note lengths down, I'll not be late or early but spot on time.

Thanks so much for the lesson! Helena

Hi Helena! Nice to see you on here! Thank you-

[vindy500]

whats wrong with wind ups?

[Garry Goodman]

Originally Posted by vindy500

whats wrong with wind ups?

Good question. They do vary in tempo, and when you are practiceing for say a non-stop 20 minutes, the metronome will beging to drag over time not to mention you have to stop and wind them again. The brand name doesn't matter,but I bought a Seiko in 1982 and it is still going strong. It is extremely accurate and also has a light that flashes in time. When you practice the extreme tempos,slow or fast,the wind up kind just freak out. I admire springs and mechanical technology to no end, but all click tracks are electronic, even in the computer programs.
Electronic MM's are worth every penny.

[steveb98]

Originally Posted by Garry Goodman

I was fired from a session for having a poor sense of groove in my younger years. It was a devistating blow to my career and it burst my "bubble" because it was for a major artist on a major label. Now,I know how to play with other musicians who have validated their time and can say I can "groove" and together we create the "magic carpet".

I stopped my life and took two course that took two years for me to complete because I had to negotiate with the metronome. An Electronic one. It required ( and still does) discipline to do it . Nobody wants to give up the secret ,but it is easier said than done. I can't believe there bass players out there who haven't validated their time center charging people money for their "clinics".

There is a specific sensation that occurs when we are "in the pocket" and it's like hitting the "bull's eye". Once you have achieved this,anywhere you go in any playing situation, you will always groove.

Instead of writing a bunch of flowery words, I would say go and buy an electronic metronome (no wind ups!!!!!!! ) set it to about 80 bpm, and practice playing quarter notes on one pitch for as long as you can stand it. Record your bass and the metronome. Listen back and see if the two are together or off. Muting the string helps. This is a building block to grooving. Then, I feel you will get the most of of a book like Jauqo's . Put on the metronome with everything you practice. If it annoys you,then you need to learn to listen to it and include it as part of your fingers,string and rhythm. Embrace it, it is your best friend.

Well put. Because without understanding good time you can't control playing on top of the beat, behind the beat, or on the beat. I remember getting to talk to Jim Keltner one of my favorite drummers. I asked how he can make the simplist rock drum beat so dam FAT. He said simple hihat is on the beat, bass drum on top of the beat, and snare hits behind the beat. You have to have a good sence of time to do that.

One best excersises I got was a my first lesson with a new teacher. He had me put my bass down and clap quarter notes to a metronome. He was saying my time was off and I thought I was doing okay. He said if i can still hear the metronome then the time is off. So I started practicing clapping to the metronome and making the click disappear.

Something friends I and would do is get the Louis Bellison book, Excersizes in 4/4. Lots of great rhythms simple to hard. Sometimes we would clap the rhythms, other times play any note to the rhythms. Then a buddy and I would take a some of the rhythms and write pitches for the notes in the rhythms then give to each other to play.

I you can find a friend that want to work on get their time together it helps. I got lucky and the band I was in at the time got into working on our time. Our drummer would setup headphones with a click at practice. We would get off and he would really start slamming that snare and glaring at us. It was good for him he became good at taking a band getting off tempo and pull them back in.

[Garry Goodman]

Originally Posted by steveb98

Well put. Because without understanding good time you can't control playing on top of the beat, behind the beat, or on the beat. I remember getting to talk to Jim Keltner one of my favorite drummers. I asked how he can make the simplist rock drum beat so dam FAT. He said simple hihat is on the beat, bass drum on top of the beat, and snare hits behind the beat. You have to have a good sence of time to do that.

One best excersises I got was a my first lesson with a new teacher. He had me put my bass down and clap quarter notes to a metronome. He was saying my time was off and I thought I was doing okay. He said if i can still hear the metronome then the time is off. So I started practicing clapping to the metronome and making the click disappear.

Something friends I and would do is get the Louis Bellison book, Excersizes in 4/4. Lots of great rhythms simple to hard. Sometimes we would clap the rhythms, other times play any note to the rhythms. Then a buddy and I would take a some of the rhythms and write pitches for the notes in the rhythms then give to each other to play.

I you can find a friend that want to work on get their time together it helps. I got lucky and the band I was in at the time got into working on our time. Our drummer would setup headphones with a click at practice. We would get off and he would really start slamming that snare and glaring at us. It was good for him he became good at taking a band getting off tempo and pull them back in.

Making the metronome to disaper is the trick. You need to be able to make it disapear every clap for as long as you can. Where it gets intense (and what took me two years) is to be able to clap ever rhythmic subdivision for quarter,eighth,sixteenth and eighth note triplets at every tempo on the metronome and make every figure sit evenly on the click so the metronome always disapears.

Then you can, for example, read down Jauqo's book and really play those great grooves well.

From doing every subdivision with the metronome,I can now pretty much write out any rhythm I hear, read any rhythm and know it is "in the pocket". I am not concerned with rushing or playing behind the beat, just right on it. There is no substitue for real musical training.

[Garry Goodman]

Originally Posted by steveb98

Well put. Because without understanding good time you can't control playing on top of the beat, behind the beat, or on the beat. I remember getting to talk to Jim Keltner one of my favorite drummers. I asked how he can make the simplist rock drum beat so dam FAT. He said simple hihat is on the beat, bass drum on top of the beat, and snare hits behind the beat. You have to have a good sence of time to do that.

One best excersises I got was a my first lesson with a new teacher. He had me put my bass down and clap quarter notes to a metronome. He was saying my time was off and I thought I was doing okay. He said if i can still hear the metronome then the time is off. So I started practicing clapping to the metronome and making the click disappear.

Something friends I and would do is get the Louis Bellison book, Excersizes in 4/4. Lots of great rhythms simple to hard. Sometimes we would clap the rhythms, other times play any note to the rhythms. Then a buddy and I would take a some of the rhythms and write pitches for the notes in the rhythms then give to each other to play.

I you can find a friend that want to work on get their time together it helps. I got lucky and the band I was in at the time got into working on our time. Our drummer would setup headphones with a click at practice. We would get off and he would really start slamming that snare and glaring at us. It was good for him he became good at taking a band getting off tempo and pull them back in.

Bingo!
Getting the click of the metronome to disaper is the trick. You need to be able to make it disapear every clap for as long as you can. Where it gets intense (and what took me two years) is to be able to clap ever rhythmic subdivision for quarter,eighth,sixteenth and eighth note triplets at every tempo on the metronome and make every figure sit evenly on the click so the metronome always disapears.Then one can really play "in the pocket".

Then you can, for example, read down Jauqo's book and really play those great grooves well.

From doing every subdivision with the metronome,I can now pretty much write out any rhythm I hear, read any rhythm and know it is "in the pocket". I am not concerned with rushing or playing behind the beat, just right on it. There is no substitue for real musical training.

[JAUQO III-X]

Thanks teedub for even mentioning me in the same context of Groove.

And I would just like to say that
Each individuals key to their ability to groove is based off of their internal rhythm first,that's why when you listen to a Bass player and you recognize that their groove is weak,well that's based off of their internal rhythm putting out to the listener what is inside of the player.


I haven't posted because my entire view of
groove when it comes to explaining it,is very very spiritual(and I don't mean that as a cliche).

I find it interesting with artist having so much access and the ability to putting their material on the Internet,I've also noticed that a lot the grooves are so weak that it should be a little embarrassing for some of these Bass players so much so that they shouldn't even call themselves a groover let alone a Bass player,the bottom line is you have so many kat's who are running(doing every thing on the Bass but grooving) and they never learn/learned to take those much needed baby steps that are so vitale to what makes all of us the Bass player that we should be,even when we don't have a clue.

[teedub]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

Thanks teedub for even mentioning me in the same context of Groove.

And many thanks to you for your contributions! Your groove instruction has made me a MUCH stronger player, and your name should be recognized as one to be respected in regards to being a TRUE player.

The thanks is sent right back at you, my friend.

[Garry Goodman]

Originally Posted by teedub

And many thanks to you for your contributions! Your groove instruction has made me a MUCH stronger player, and your name should be recognized as one to be respected in regards to being a TRUE player.

The thanks is sent right back at you, my friend.

+1

[JAUQO III-X]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

Each individuals key to their ability to groove is based off of their internal rhythm first

The root of it all and some have to simply learn how to develope and nurture what is instilled in most of us.


Pocket is the groove and the groove is how well the pocket becomes the one.

[JAUQO III-X]

With all due respect some have it,some don't and most have to develope it,each culture has their very own interpretation of what groove is and the bottom line is,some are born with that X factor,some will know when they feel it and some will think they have it because they falsley feel it.


tim99 since you seem to have acquired some of the keys where do you go from here?

[pointbass]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

With all due respect some have it,some don't and most have to develope it,each culture has their very own interpretation of what groove is and the bottom line is,some are born with that X factor,some will know when they feel it and some will think they have it because they falsley feel it.

Exactly ^^^^

While I don't know for sure, I would guess that James Jamerson was born with it, Rocco Prestia was born with it, Charles Mingus was born with it, along with a great many others. That doesn't mean they took their playing for granted, it just means that the groove didn't need to be explained to them.

When I was much younger, I had a heck of a hard time playing a good latin groove. Then one day, out of the blue, it came to me. Or at least I thought it did, till I went out on a gig with all latin cats and basically embarrassed myself. As Jauqo said, I falsely felt the latin groove. After 5 years of seriously listening to and playing latin music, I did another gig with many of the same guys, and this time, no embarrassment.

Garry is 100% right, you need to dedicate yourself to discipline and practice. But it's not the end-all, be-all of grooving. And as Jauqo said above, don't allow yourself to falsely believe that you now understand the groove.

It's actually pretty easy to find out if you're a groove player .... if other musicians you deeply respect are asking you to join them, you're probably a decent groove guy. If those same guys aren't contacting you, it's time to hit the 'shed .....