Self taught experience....

[nick9871]

Hi everyone,

Sorry for the long winded 1st post but I wanted to give some background info as well!

My father gave me one of his basses a bit over a year ago. To put an age to my story, I am 25 now, livin and workin in Seattle. I also started learning the guitar, drums and keyboard over 2 years ago. I can play rhythm guitar with open chords or a capo just fine and can play simple tunes on the piano. My passion is the bass and percussion, however, so really getting good on the guitar was never an incentive. Although, in hindsight, learning arpeggios on the guitar would have helped!

Anyway, I started intensely and exclusively practicing the bass about 2 months ago. By that I mean learning the fretboard, learning music theory, learning and understanding chord tones, progressions, and just jamming with my dad and other buds.

I have taken the approach of trying to master a specific major or minor key; knowing where the notes are all over the fretboard, knowing the chords over different progressions, and applying a scale. I gave up on looking at tabs and basically just loop songs to try to learn them.

So far, in applying my plan, I am working on mastering the key of C of the fretboard and its chords using the major scale.

But I have two problems that are frustrating me:

1. I run into problems trying to learn songs. I might pick a song that is in the key of Am and then I have no idea what is going on, simply because I don't know where the notes for the chords in Am are, yet. Since I want to learn the song I usually deviate from applying "My plan" and the theory and just loop the crap out of it and eventually get it or close to it... My ear is not perfect yet so I am sure I am missing notes.

I have learned Hati by Arcade Fire, most of White man in Hammersmith, One Drop by Bob Marley, and I can almost play Love You Madly by Cake. But I know for sure I am not playing them 100% correct and I couldn't tell you what key any of those songs are in nor what chord I am playing.

Should I be picking songs that are playable? In the sense should I be picking songs that I can actually apply the theory that I know (which would be songs that are in Cmaj right now)? I guess a teacher would help here ha! I realize that as I learn more keys and master the fretboard I can expand what songs I play, but I am wondering if picking songs "outside" what I can actually play is actually hindering me in some degree. Or should I be learning these songs and trying to actually figure out what key they are in and what not... In other words, working backwards; learning a song and then applying theory rather then applying theory as I am trying to play?

2. I think I have a really hard time finding roots when the chord starts off in an inversion. Maybe that is not even the correct wording for my problem. I'll use Bob Marley's One Drop for instance. It seems like sometimes I mistake a 5th for a root... Especially in reggae. It seems like my mind always picks the note with the most emphasis or most "ring". But sometimes it appears that this note doesn't end up being the root and is the 5th of a chord so I get all screwed up.

Anyway, for that song it seems like the roots are C then B or G (G makes more sense but I always go to B...) then D. But anyway could it just be that the G is just being played as the 5th of the Cmaj chord? See I get all confused in this situation.

Sorry for my long winded and coincidentally first post. Should I continue learning in the way I have described? Or is there a better practice I should take on?

I can jam with people fairly well in Cmaj (ha ha), but I have a hell of a hard time learning songs.

[cbrophy]

Online Bass Lessons at StudyBass.com

[nick9871]

Yup I have been following his site. Great stuff. And I actually just realized that he does in fact offer songs to learn... So that will help greatly.

[mambo4]

Yuo can get a ton of mileage from being familiar with the sound of common chord progressions. Since you're in the process of mastering the key of C major, you ought to spend some time on common chord progressions like I-IV-V (C F G) and ii-iv-V-I (Dm Am G C ) in that key. If you still have a keyboard, play them and familiarize your ears with how they sound.

[fourfinger]

For ear training, learn to strum the open guitar chords to "Hey Joe" by Jimi Hendrix. The chord progression C - G - D - A - E (all Major chords) follows the cycle of fifths.

The point is, if you play this song often enough, your ear learns the cycle very well (i.e. songs run through your head, so when this song does, it is the cycle). Picking up songs becomes easier.

The other thing is learn intervals by mnemonic devices (Twinkle TWINKLE = 5th, Here Comes the Bride = 4th, etc.) Once you can hum just a few basic intervals to yourself at will, you'll have a powerful new tool for learning by ear.

[MalcolmAmos]

Back up to the basics. Fake chord and the major scale box pattern. Yes - do not go the tab route. It's OK to peek at tabs to see how to do something, but, relying only on tabs is not the answer - of course IMHO.

Fake chord is every where and much easier to find than standard notation bass clef. So use fake chord and work on developing your bass lines is where I'd point you.

Bass Patterns based upon the Major Scale box. Place the root on your fretboard and the notes of what you are wanting - scale or chord - will automatically fall under your fingers - as long as you stay in the box.

Major Scale Box.

G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string

Basic Chords
Major Triad = R-3-5
Minor Triad = R-b3-5
Diminished Chord = R-b3-b5

7th Chords
Maj7 = R-3-5-7
Minor 7 = R-b3-5-b7
Dominant 7 = R-3-5-b7
½ diminished = R-b3-b5-b7
Full diminished = R-b3-b5-bb7 Harmonic minor and melodic minor will use the full bb7

Scales
Major Pentatonic = R-2-3-5-6
Minor Pentatonic = R-b3-4-5-b7
Blues = R-b3-4-b5-5-b7
Major Scale = R-2-3-4-5-6-7
Natural Minor Scale = R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7
Harmonic Minor Scale = R-2-b3-4-5-b6-7
Melodic Minor Scale = R-2-b3-4-5-6-7

Major modes
Ionian same as the Major Scale.
Lydian use the major scale and sharp the 4 - yes, it’s that simple.
Mixolydian use the major scale and flat the 7.

Minor Modes
Aeolian same as the Natural Minor scale.
Dorian use the Natural Minor scale and sharp the b6 back to a natural 6.
Phrygian use the Natural Minor scale and flat the 2.
Locrian use the Natural Minor scale and flat the 2 and the 5.

Generic Bass Line Notes.
The root, five and eight are generic and fit most any chord. Remember the diminished has a flatted 5.
The 3 is generic to all major chords.
The b3 is generic to all minor chords.
The 7 is generic to all maj7 chords.
The b7 is generic to all dominant seventh and minor seventh chords.
The 6 is neutral and adds color, help yourself to 6’s.
The 2 and 4 make good passing notes. Don’t linger on them or stop on them, keep them passing.
In making your bass line help yourself to those notes, just use them correctly.
Roots, fives, eights and the correct 3 will play a lot of bass.

This may help. Notes on the fretboard, cheaters?

Ed Friedland's Building Walking Bass Lines is a great study on how to make your bass lines.
Scott Devine has some great videos on playing arpeggios and how to make your bass lines move to to the next chord. Kinda important if you want to use walking bass lines. Google will find Scott.

Have fun.

[Volk99]

IMO you're on the right track. Learning the fingerboard and developing your ear will help you big-time in the long run. If I were you, I wouldn't spend time trying to memorize scale patterns, as some have suggested. You get a much deeper understanding if you learn the note names and what they sound like.

How long have you been working on C major? It might be tempting to master one scale before moving on to the next, but you might want to consider mixing it up and start working on different scales. After all, you can always go back to C later. Eventually, you're going to want to be able to play in any key, so you might as well start sooner rather than later. That might help you learning songs in different keys.

As for learning songs by ear, it can be very difficult, but it's a great skill to develop, and I'll bet if you keep it up you'll be glad you did. You might want to try using some sheet music to learn songs just to mix things up so you don't get too frustrated.

Good luck.

[nick9871]

Thanks everyone. Volk99 I have started to make my way around the circle of fifths to learn new keys and also understand the circle better. I also decided that my ear is not very good so it is easy for me to get frustrated when trying to find notes and progressions. I have resorted to trying to find just the chords used in some songs, or even just the key, without looking at the progression and then going from there. I would like to be able to just play by ear like my father but he has, you know, 30 years on me

[Gaetano Paul]

Hey bro, you should seek private lessons, there is no replacing a good teacher. You sound motivated and hungry, you could progress with lightning speed with the right guidance.

[Russell L]

I think more ear training is in order, along with any of the advice above. Sometimes when I have a new tune to learn I hear it in my head. If there's a chord change that I don't know, I usually figure it out by humming along scale steps to see where it went from the previous chord, or in order to tell if it's an inversion. But, more often than that I just plain recognize what it is. That comes from many hours of listening. When I was young and learning piano all by myself I became familiar with harmonies I heard on the radio or records. You just have to take note in your mind when you hear something familiar, and try to remember what it is. After picking out hundreds of songs many things will become second nature, and you will automatically know what they are.

Best advice from me is to keep at it and don't give up on a tune just because you get stuck on something. I use to wear out my little stereo's tone arm going back, over and over, to catch a lick three or four grooves back on my old vinyl LPs. I've worn out the push buttons on a cheap cassette player doing that. Do what it takes. It's part of paying your dues.

[Bassmickeyd]

Try to separate learning theory and learning songs. ..... I know some won't agree. .... But, theory can be, but, doesn't have to be, a bore. But learning theory is important to going anywhere on any instrument. ..... Once you know the theory then you apply it to learning and understanding songs. Which answers your A minor question.
You said you should learn arpeggios on guitar but you don't mention you have been learning them on the bass?

40-years ago I walked into a music store picked up a bass and started playing. The man behind the counter said; "You're pretty good but you have no idea what you're playing." ..... I said; "You're right." ..... That started two years of Sat. afternoon theory lessons all without a bass in my hands. ..... You have to understand theory.

[Gaetano Paul]

Originally Posted by Bassmickeyd

Try to separate learning theory and learning songs. ..... I know some won't agree. .... But, theory can be, but, doesn't have to be, a bore. But learning theory is important to going anywhere on any instrument. ..... Once you know the theory then you apply it to learning and understanding songs. Which answers your A minor question.
You said you should learn arpeggios on guitar but you don't mention you have been learning them on the bass?

40-years ago I walked into a music store picked up a bass and started playing. The man behind the counter said; "You're pretty good but you have no idea what you're playing." ..... I said; "You're right." ..... That started two years of Sat. afternoon theory lessons all without a bass in my hands. ..... You have to understand theory.

Well said, I fully agree!

[nick9871]

Well you guys are so helpful I'm just going to keep asking questions until you stop responding

I am learning arpeggios on the bass by basically learning the chords in a progression and then applying an arpeggio over the chords to produce some sort of melody.

I think that one thing I overlooked was melody, like some have said here. Because on a lot of songs I can find the roots fairly quickly (especially on Rock, pop, punk and folk...not so much on funk or reggae yet).

What ends up happening now is that I can figure out a root, a chord progression (slowly, takes me about 40 times looping a song ha ha, well depends on the song of course) and then im stuck!

So I can play the root and mess around with some fifths but I guess the next step is to learn that melody and then apply arpeggios over the chords to match the melody?

Another general question: It would seem to me that you could learn the melody of a song and play it on bass, but in fact you might be doing the same thing a pianist or the guitar player is doing.

So in a sense is it up to you, as a bass player, to decide whether harmonizing is good enough, you need to follow the melody, or that following the melody produces an overly complex sound? (obviously when you learn a song that has a bass recording that logic has already been applied by the bassist).

do you guys think about this stuff when playing jamming?

[Gaetano Paul]

why are you messing with melody?

[nick9871]

Ya I'm not sure. I might be confusing arpeggios with melodies or something like that....

Hmm perhaps a piano/theory teacher would be of some help for me.

[Gaetano Paul]

A bass teacher will be able to walk you threw everything you will need.

[Rockmusician]

I am self taught and have been playing for over 30 years. I have absolutely no understanding of theory or scales. I know what notes I am playing but do not know how they relate to scales. I play everything by ear and learn very quickly. I have tried to learn theory but for some reason I just don't get it. Despite this, I have recorded, toured, appeared on television, been a technical advisor several major benefit shows, have done music for television and worked with many well known artists. I would like to learn theory and how to sight read. I'm just not sure where I should go to do this.

[chuck norriss]

my suggestion would be to listen more. notice subtle bass roles, also aggressive ones. learning songs from your favorite bands is a good place to start. kinda sounds like you're clouding your bass playing w piano & guitar. while i'm sure it ultimately helps in understanding theory & a song, those instruments play--or can play--entirely different roles. listen to beethoven's symphonies for the role the double bass plays.

[Bassmickeyd]

Rockmusician, do you play piano? ..... If not get one and start playing what you know on bass, songs and such, and start visualizing it on the keyboard cause it'll read like a road map.

Arpeggios map out a chord. That's why in an arpeggio you play the 1,3 ,5,7, and then extensions in your second octave like 9,11,13. .... Your 9,11,13 of the second is really you 2,4,6 of you first octave. ....... Everything is in the major scale. When you better understand the major scale you will better understand music and what you're playing when you're playing music.
Melodies usually start on a harmonic step in the major scale, usually the 3 or 5th of the root. But, not always.
Start on a simple song like Happy Birthday.
Find out what key it's in. (Usually G)
What relationship is the note you sing the first 'Happy Birthday' on to the root G?
Then figure out the chords and the melody and you'll understand why they work together.
You'll find Happy Birthday and little boring so the quicker you figure it out the quicker you can move on. .... But if you can't do Happy Birthday? ...... Well?

[James Judson]

IMHO there are three aspects of music that a musician needs to learn/practice.

1. Ear training. Yes that is listening (and lots of it). Eventually you will recognize intervals, scales, chords, key changes etc. I use an MP3 player so I am essentually praticing while mowing the lawn, driving to work, exercising etc. Ear training will help play those songs you've never heard, make up solos on the spot, jam with anyone anytime. This is a skill that anyone can learn

2. Practice. Yes that is actually putting hands on your instrument. If you don't know what to practice get a teacher. A good teacher will keep new and challenging stuff in your face so you should not get bored. Also a good teacher makes a wonderful sound board for emotions, technical questions, where to put fingers for technic, best tone etc. Don't forget to fire your teacher and get a new one for a fresh perspective.

3. Theory. This is just a language to communicate music. You do not need any theory to "play" music. Theory will not teach you where to put your fingers. Theory has simply named all those things a musician does. Rockmusician claims to know "no music theory". I'll bet he would understand if I said "this song is in the key of A, its a 1 - 4 - 5 and starts on the 5. He would not qualify for my band for 30 seconds if he didn't know some basic music theory. I bet he even knows the names of the open strings (don't tell him thats music theory).

A healty dose of all three makes for a well rounded musician. Leave any one of the three out and your only partly a musician or at least a solo musician that does not know what he is doing.