Sharps and flats? Same thing?

Demon · #1 06-12-2006, 11:37 AM

Is a sharp and flat same thing practically? like C#, is that same as Dd?

labgnat · #2 06-12-2006, 11:40 AM

Marc Piane · #3 06-12-2006, 11:45 AM

yes, well no, well yes...

Those two notes are called enharmonic equivalents.

How an alteration appears written often has to do with what interval is altered. For example a #11 in the key of G will be called a C#. Written music is about communication. When you write something or say something you just need to think about the assumtions the other musicians will make about a note's function in the tune.

bassicinstinct · #4 06-12-2006, 11:48 AM

Yes.

Also, it give the brass section something to argue about.

**WillPlay4Food** · #5 06-12-2006, 11:55 AM

C# and Db are the same note, but serve different functions when determining the harmony of a song. For example, C# could be the augmented 5th in the chord F-A-C# and Db could be the diminished 5th in the chord G-B-Db.

Ed Fuqua · #6 06-12-2006, 11:59 AM

Don't get confused, you're talking about two different things. A sharp and a flat are different; a sharp will raise the value of a pitch by a half step and a flat will lower the value of a pitch by a half step.

Enharmonic value - as fingers says, enharmonic values let you talk about specific pitches in terms of functionality within harmony. In the key of C major (for example) you have degrees of the scale 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, octave, right? And you can apply sharps or flats to alter ANY of those scale degrees. But each degree of the scale corresponds to a specific pitch, so it depends on what you are looking at harmonically in order to determine whether that scale degree (which is the same PITCH) is acting as a sharp 4 or 11 (F#) or a flat 5 (Gb).

IanStephenson · #7 06-12-2006, 12:29 PM

You need to use the different names because in a scale, the note above a Csomething is ALWAYS a Dsomething.

for example an A

A B C# D E F# G# A
it can't be
A B Db D E F# Ab A

even though they're the same notes, as that scale doesn't have a C in it, and the note after B is a D not a C. Simlarly the note after an F something is a G something.

Ian

Marc Piane · #8 06-12-2006, 01:49 PM

I look at it this way. If you are going to put sound into language it is important to be a clear as possible. What you call a note is important then.

Also calling a note a # or a b could also imply which direction the note might resolve.

phxlbrmpf · #9 06-12-2006, 02:37 PM

E = Fb, C = B#!

ric1312 · #10 06-12-2006, 02:56 PM

All of your are overcomplicating it for the level of music theory he is at/asking about. although you may be right, it's not helping him to heap on all the extra stuff.

Yes it is the same note. Wether or not its a sharp or flat depends on which way you are going on the kneck.

If you go towards the pickups the note is sharp, if you are going towards the headstock the note is flat.

Marc Piane · #11 06-12-2006, 03:17 PM

ric - then it doesn't matter what you call it. 4th fret - A string.

I teach all levels of students and I am always clear with them what to call stuff. It is just like teaching any language.

gsys · #12 06-12-2006, 03:26 PM

C# does not = Db
Equal temperament is not always ideal

Kronos · #13 06-12-2006, 03:29 PM

I may not know much about music theory, but I look at it the same way as you would look at English.

Let's take the verb "is". It changes depending on how you use it, even though it means the same thing.

tZer · #14 06-12-2006, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric1312

...If you go towards the pickups the note is sharp, if you are going towards the headstock the note is flat.

Ok, I may be misinterpreting your intent, but that would seem to say that on my way up (toward the pickups), an A Major scale's notes would be:
A B C# D E F# G# A
and on my return trip (heading toward the headstock) the notes would be
A Ab Gb E D Db B A - as was stated earlier by someone.

"Mum, no good... no good! Back to the drawring board with ya!"

Furthermore, if I am discussing a song that is in A Major with a friend and explaining to him that from the 4th (or D) he needs to go down in pitch to the 3rd, I would refer to that pitch by it's correct name in reference to the scale (key) - C# - not as Db simply because the 'motion' was toward the headstock or 'down'.

Dig it?

lemur821 · #15 06-13-2006, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric1312

All of your are overcomplicating it for the level of music theory he is at/asking about. although you may be right, it's not helping him to heap on all the extra stuff.

...

If you go towards the pickups the note is sharp, if you are going towards the headstock the note is flat.

Everybody else may be telling him more than he needs, but this is just wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsys

C# does not = Db
Equal temperament is not always ideal

But that's neither here nor there. He is using equal temperament, so for him, C# == Db. That's like telling someone that "die" isn't what you do when you get killed because "die" is a definite article in German.

Poop-Loops · #16 06-13-2006, 01:40 AM

Is a C# the same pitch as a Db? What's that? It is? Do they sound the same? EXACTLY the same you say? Then I guess they are the same thing, but with different names.

dlloyd · #17 06-13-2006, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demon

Is a sharp and flat same thing practically? like C#, is that same as Dd?

It's the same note in terms of where you fret it.

It's not the same note in terms of how it's used.

It probably makes little difference to you right now but it's best to understand now that they are not interchangable... it will save you a lot of confusion later.

Cureswhatailsye · #18 06-13-2006, 05:30 AM

On an unfretted instrument of the string family, a C# and Db are actually a different tone, a C# is distinctly sharper than a Db. As a closet cellist, the strings are always reminded of this fact!

I would agree about the harmonic place of the note.

On a fretted instrument, they are the same tone, but harmonically its use is different. Although consider that an augmented 4th is the same as a diminished 5th. Hmmmm room for debate....?

.matthew e wengerd. · #19 06-13-2006, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cureswhatailsye

On an unfretted instrument of the string family, a C# and Db are actually a different tone, a C# is distinctly sharper than a Db. As a closet cellist, the strings are always reminded of this fact!

So, when you're playing with a piano, be it jazz or someone's (anyone's) piano concerto with an orchestra, you're going to play different pitches for C# and Db? Something tells me the pianist will be playing the same exact pitches.

And for the record, what form of intonation always has the sharp in the enharmonic pair higher in pitch than the flat?

tZer · #20 06-13-2006, 07:09 AM

Ok - remove ALL THEORY and simply address the sound of the notes C# and Db - Close your eyes, have a piano player, or trumpet player or bass player (upright or electric) play the notes in question - First C# - then Db... Can you tell a difference? No. Same thing with E# and F, G# and Ab and so on. Remember... there is NO CONTEXT. These are simply pitches that vibrate and the same frequency but have two ways to refer to them.

Add Theory back in and have those notes played within the context of a key signature. Do the the notes C# and Db still vibrate at the same rate? Yes. Do they "sound the same" within the context of the key signature or triad? Well, no. They still vibrate at the same rate but in relation to the notes that surround them they take on a different flavor/color.

Ok. Is anyone going to toss the double sharp and double flat effect on the hump? Please don't.