Simple theory question for you: what key is this?

DLM · #1 01-11-2008, 06:04 AM

My guitarist likes to play this simple jazz-style vamp that modulates back and forth between Am7 to D7. The scale that perfectly contains all the notes in these two chords is G major. However, we never specifically resolve to (or play in) the G chord in this vamp.

Does this mean that we're playing in the key of G major (as opposed to Am, etc.)?

Thanks!

Bassist4Life · #2 01-11-2008, 06:31 AM

That a simple 2-5 progression in the key of G Major.

Joe

Blonde Bassist · #3 01-11-2008, 08:17 AM

yeah, like bassist4life said, its from a II-V-I progression in G, so any note in G major will fit. There are loads of songs that have that kind of feel in, check out Red Baron by Billy Cobham, uses the II-V progression a lot, as does Chamelion by Herbie Hancock.

cowsgomoo · #4 01-11-2008, 10:32 AM

it's a fantastic and very common cliche of a chord progression... it works because it has a little bit of tension because of the tug towards the I, but the chords are pleasant sounding so your ear doesn't feel cheated by the lack of resolution... it can roll on and on for days and days while your guitarist can do that A Dorian finger wiggling stuff with all the correct notes under the easy frets with the dots under them

Carlos Santana is notorious for that particular progression, and Frank Zappa used it on 'City of Tiny Lites' (Gm7 - C7), which had the solo section used a few times on various guitar solo albums, with such titles as 'Variations on the Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression'

mutedeity · #5 01-11-2008, 10:49 AM

Actually that would be a ii7 - V7 progression in G not "II-V-I", assuming that the D7 isn't a secondary dominant for example, where it could be i7 - IV7.

DLM · #6 01-11-2008, 04:09 PM

All, thanks for the replies. You confirmed my hunch was correct. Here's a Part 2 to my question.

In that same Am7-->D7 vamp, there is a "bridge" where he goes to Fmaj7-->Em7-->Ebmaj7-->Dm7

Now, is it correct to say there are two key changes here? The first one being Fmaj7 and the second Ebmaj7?

middlebit · #7 01-11-2008, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLM

In that same Am7-->D7 vamp, there is a "bridge" where he goes to Fmaj7-->Em7-->Ebmaj7-->Dm7

Now, is it correct to say there are two key changes here? The first one being Fmaj7 and the second Ebmaj7?

There are two key changes there, only as I see it you are playing two IV-iii progressions in C major then Bb major.

Also, I'd like to point out that just because you know what key it the tune is in and what scale you can use, "any note" of that scale won't necessarily work against the chord. There are definite tension, release and even avoid notes that relate to the chords you mention. If you want to make a coherent statement, the chords must be respected. At least to some degree, until you have complete control of how you resolve your lines. But once we're talking about resolving lines, there is really no need to focus exclusively on one particular scale except maybe the chromatic scale.

HaVIC5 · #8 01-11-2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bassist4Life

That a simple 2-5 progression in the key of G Major.

Joe

No, this is incorrect. The thread starter was correct in his thought that because that the chords never actually resolve to a G major chord or any tonic derivation thereof the progression isn't in the key of G major. It will have the same key signature, yes, and all of the same notes implied by the two chord, but it is NOT in G major. Because of the strong placement of the Am7 chord relative to the D7 in the harmonic rhythm, and the fact that its a repeated phrase, you will hear the chords with relationship to an A tonic, meaning A dorain, and not a G tonic. Saying it is in the key of G major not only means saying it has a key signature of one sharp, but that you will hear the G as being the tonic, "home" note. A dorian has a key signature of one sharp as well, but it is NOT the same thing as G major.

Adjusted for the relationship to the key of A dorian, it is a Im7-IV7 vamp, one of the most common vamps you can have in a dorian mode.

DocBop · #9 01-11-2008, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Adjusted for the relationship to the key of A dorian, it is a Im7-IV7 vamp, one of the most common vamps you can have in a dorian mode.

and the parent key of A Dorian is... G major.

Bassist4Life · #10 01-11-2008, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by middlebit

There are two key changes there, only as I see it you are playing two IV-iii progressions in C major then Bb major.

+1

I agree with this analysis.

Concerning the ii V progression, I don't believe the progression needs to resolve to the I chord to be in the key of G major.

In the analysis of jazz charts you'll find many progressions that don't resolve to their tonic.

Joe

HaVIC5 · #11 01-11-2008, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBop

and the parent key of A Dorian is... G major.

You could just as easily say E minor - it has one sharp as well, and Am7 and D7 are diatonic to E minor. It doesn't change the fact that it's not in E minor, or G major. The D7 doesn't have dominant function.

HaVIC5 · #12 01-11-2008, 09:14 PM

Quote:

In the analysis of jazz charts you'll find many progressions that don't resolve to their tonic.

Very true, but their resolution is always implied or resolved deceptively to some unrelated chord. In jazz, the tonal center of a ii-V is very well defined as the corresponding I, even if it resolved away from that. If you analyzed this as a ii-V in G major, you'd have to analyze the D7 as constantly resolving deceptively and never resolving to its implied tonic. Your ear simply doesn't hear it this way. Play this chord progression on your bass for a while. Are you going to tell me that you hear G as the tonal center? Or is it A? The vast majority of listeners would say A because of the strong and constant harmonic rhythm of the first chord in the vamp, and that's how its analyzed.

axisluminary · #13 01-11-2008, 09:34 PM

what THE HELL is a parent key? the key of G major (ionian mode) has no authority over the key of A minor with a sharp 6th (dorian mode).

Andrew.Glose · #14 01-11-2008, 09:53 PM

It's Gmaj. If it's an Amin7, (which doesn't have a sharp 6, but a NATURAL 6, flat 3rd, and flat 7th) leading to D7, then it's home key is Gmaj. No, it's not Emin6, also referred to as the relative minor of Gmaj. Since when has a ii-V ever commonly resolved by going ii-V-vi. It's not the majority case, which is not to say it isn't done, but the home key you're looking to play in (if that's your approach) is Gmaj7 (Ionian Mode).

inasilentway · #15 01-11-2008, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by axisluminary

what THE HELL is a parent key? the key of G major (ionian mode) has no authority over the key of A minor with a sharp 6th (dorian mode).

Here's what this all means.
G Major: G A B C D E F# G
A Dorian: A B C D E F# G A

Notice anything? Dorian is just starting a major scale from the second note. Spell out B Phrygian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian, E Aeolian, and F# Locrian, and see if that illuminates things a little more. All of the modes come from a related major, it helps a lot to memorize them in relation to their major key rather than just think of them as altered major/minor. So the OP is playing in Dorian, because their "home" is the ii chord.

Andrew Jones · #16 01-11-2008, 10:03 PM

The term is parent "Scale" not key.

Your playing in the key of Amin (dorian).

axisluminary · #17 01-11-2008, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inasilentway

Here's what this all means.
G Major: G A B C D E F# G
A Dorian: A B C D E F# G A

Notice anything? Dorian is just starting a major scale from the second note. Spell out B Phrygian, C Lydian, D Mixolydian, E Aeolian, and F# Locrian, and see if that illuminates things a little more. All of the modes come from a related major, it helps a lot to memorize them in relation to their major key rather than just think of them as altered major/minor. So the OP is playing in Dorian, because their "home" is the ii chord.

why can't all of these modes be relative to the dorian mode? the simple point that i was trying to make was that each mode has it's own tonal characteristics. people should stop thinking of them in terms of ionian and aeolian relation...

inasilentway · #18 01-11-2008, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by axisluminary

why can't all of these modes be relative to the dorian mode? the simple point that i was trying to make was that each mode has it's own tonal characteristics. people should stop thinking of them in terms of ionian and aeolian relation...

Well, it's up to each musician to think of them however they like. But I learned modes from a teacher who explained them to me in terms of "minor with a natural 6th" etc, but when I got to college and learned that they all come from a related major it opened up theory for me in a major way.

I misunderstood your question, thinking that you didn't know the relation of modes to major keys, and was just quoting you as an example. Several people have erroneously posted that the OP is in G major when the progression doesn't include a G major chord. It can be a ii-V in a major key, but since the A minor is home and there is no G major, it is a i-IV7 in Dorian. To use your analogy, it would be like if someone said "I'm playing Gmaj7 and D7" and they got the reply "You're clearly playing a V-II7 in C Lydian".

I don't care how anyone thinks of modes but anyone who says the OP is in G does not understand modes, as progressions like that are exactly the reason why we have modes.

DocBop · #19 01-11-2008, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

You could just as easily say E minor - it has one sharp as well, and Am7 and D7 are diatonic to E minor. It doesn't change the fact that it's not in E minor, or G major. The D7 doesn't have dominant function.

G is the parent scale of E Aeolian too.

Also II and IV sub's for each other so could be viewed at a IV V in G Maj. Just kidding with you.

I see it as all the possible ways of looking at this come back to a G parent scale. Just to explain my process, not to say its right or wrong just how I view it. First the D7 is a non-functioning dominant and the scale to use is Lydian b7, Altered scale doesn't work too well because it doesn't resolve. Then to try and get a better feel for the parent key I start playing it using the chord sub's and comp'ing chords. The CMaj sub'ing or the Ami works good, but what about D7? Well the sub for a V7 is VII. So what mi7b5 work to me in that case. After trying a few the F# mi7b5 works sub'ing for the D7 in this progression. F# is the VII of G. Now comping the triads that sounded good were C and D. Playing C and D triads against Ami to D7 is a A Dorian sound because they are the IV and V of G. FYI to imply the sound of a mode when comp'ing use the IV and V triads of the Parent scale. So to me this vamp has a G parent scale sound.

So a view into the jibber jabber going on in my head.

Andrew Jones · #20 01-12-2008, 12:51 AM

These questions often drive me crazy people IMO over think this stuff. The idea is to used words that describe what you hear. The Term "KEY center" has a very natural musical phenomenon associated with it. I means home,, means comfort,resolution. I means what 9 out of 10 people would sing as the "end" they would sing....... A...