simple vs complex playing

[mozarwasagenius]

Let me preface this by saying my goal is to play on my instrument what I hear in my head. Sometimes that is simple whole notes, following the kick drum and sometimes it is driving and complex. The tone also is affected by these choices as the more simple the line, the "bassier" I eq it... the more complicated the more mids are thrown in.

I am referring to rock music in general. For the sake of argument, lets focus on original tunes.

It really depends on the song and the mood of it as far as which direction and to what degree I go.

As I play with more musicians, I notice certain ones (including bassists) that scorn the bass line deviating from the kick drum. I know that I can always play it safe on a tune and do this - not that it is always easy, but it usually results in something that sounds good. Depends on the drummer, the kick part and the song itself... actually many factors.

However, I want something that sounds great, not just good, within the context of the song. Sometimes that involves slight rhythmic shifts ala the masters like Jamerson and Shakespeare - sometimes it goes into Entwistle and Steve Harris territory.

Guess I don't have an actual question, but I'm curious what your thoughts are on this.

Thanks,
mozarwasagenius

[MalcolmAmos]

Embellish all you want as long as you are not stepping on any one else's toes. Some people are responsible for the melody, some are responsible for the rhythm, some are responsible for the vocals. As long as you augment every one's efforts and do not compete with them -- have at it.

But, yes in comping sometime less is more.

[Chris K]

One of the keys to good music is the use of contrast. Loud<> soft, fast<>slow etc. including, of course, simple<> complex.

[Mharris]

Yea man. I can relate. I'm in a three piece band originals band that I co-founded and so I'm free to do whatever I please for the most part. It's challenging trying to tie so many of the elements together and make it feel and sound great. I'm still learning and getting better. In fact, I'd have to say I'm still learning how to learn.

And although my band's front man has been playing guitar for 11 years, he has only been playing electric guitar for a year and so I have to fill up some more sonic space while still supporting the harmony and driving the rhythm. I'm getting better at it. Plus We've gone through several drummers, each one we've had is better than the last and they challenge me to do things in different and challenging ways. I'm re-reading Victor Wooten's "The Music Lesson", a book that has profoundly affected my playing. I've been playing almost 11 years now and with exception to a year in music school at the University of Montana, I'm self taught. I feel like only within the last three years have I really begun to understand music, and my instrument as a whole, on a deeper level.

I often listen to the music we've recorded and there is a lot I would change (and have changed) but that's all part of the learning process. It's exciting. Every day brings for me something new to learn.

[Exploiter8]

We are individuals coming together to form a song.

I have and always will play what I want to play because it always fits! Let the drummer do his thing while I do mine. As long as common sense is used with regard to runs and fills it all sounds fine.

If "Locking In" means the Bass Guitarist and Drummer's Bass-drum hitting at the same time, well that just seems counter-productive. May as well just have a snare and hi-hat.



X8

[JimmyM]

play what you feel, feel what you play.

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

play what you feel, feel what you play.

That, and sharing is caring, caring is sharing.

[bluesdogblues]

Play what you feel the song needed

[Otso]

Originally Posted by Chris K

One of the keys to good music is the use of contrast. Loud<> soft, fast<>slow etc. including, of course, simple<> complex.

One rather good example of contrast.

I believe it's Jamerson playing bass on that. The verses are mostly simple and rhythmic playing, but on the choruses he lets loose. The approach works very well in this song because the whole song is orchestrated and written in such a way that the choruses have a lot more going on during them. Another good example would be "Come on and Dream Some Paradise" by "The New Birth", but unfortunately the only version of it on youtube is a shorter version that doesn't have the choruses!

[Russell L]

The biggest stumbling block for me is when there's a drummer who plays "weird" on the kick drum instead of what it should be. Yuck.

[HeadyVan Halen]

Hum the bassline before you play one note. Our hands will try to fall into familar patterns.
I usually find it makes a more interesting yet simpler bassline which is what we all look for.


JC McNeil Band

[mambo4]

Generally the rhythm section must support the rhythmic groove/feel of a song.
Not locking in with the kick runs the risk of fighting the groove, so it requires taste and ears to pull off.
Locking in with the kick drum is basically the simple answer that always works.
Other musicians ( my bandmates included) might listen to you fiddle trying to find that awsome jamersonesque phrase and suggest following the kick in order to get things moving again.

I find the best way to insert some of my personal awsome to a song is to postpone such efforts at first:
establish the groove simply, let sink in and become instinctive, listen to the rest of the band.
Eventually the spaces in the song that 'want' some extra sauce will become clear.

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by mambo4

Generally the rhythm section must support the rhythmic groove/feel of a song. Not locking in with the kick runs the risk of fighting the groove, so it requires taste and ears to pull off. Locking in with the kick drum is basically the simple answer that always works. Other musicians ( my bandmates included) might listen to you fiddle trying to find that awsome jamersonesque phrase and suggest following the kick in order to get things moving again.

I find the best way to insert some of my personal awsome to a song is to postpone such efforts at first: establish the groove simply, let sink in and become instinctive, listen to the rest of the band. Eventually the spaces in the song that 'want' some extra sauce will become clear.

That's solid advice, man.

It's important also for a drummer to listen to the bass part to see if he should go with it. In any case, it's good when the bass and kick work together. Plus, the kick can truly give your bass notes that punch you can't seem to ever get from your amp alone.

[JimmyM]

i hate bands who all they do is lock in with the kick. ya, sometimes it's cool, but a lot of times i just get bored.

[FretlessMainly]

Just to turn the premise on its ear, do those same musicians scorn kick drum parts that deviate from the bass line?

To me, music is a breathing entity. All parts should either lock in with or otherwise compliment the other parts for a purpose. At this point in my music career, I have no interest in playing within any bounds other than those established in my head after playing bass for 30+ years. I also have the luxury of not having to do this for a living, although I did substantially supplement my income by playing jazz standards for about 5 or 6 years in the mid-late 1990s.

Point is, if it sounds good to your ear, play it. If the band likes it, great. If not, either suck it up and deal or find another situtation.

[bluesdogblues]

Kick is important, but not everything in the beat;
Beat is important, but not everything in the rhythm;
Rhythm is important but IMHO there's some else important thing in a context of the song.

The bass sometimes need to, but doesn't necesseraly always have to, lock in with the kick drum.

The term "Lock in with the kick" itself may have different intepretations, depends..

It depends on the need or context of the song, the music, the kind of result we want from art in the sound that we play.

Just my two cents

[Russell L]

The bass doesn't have to be srtictly "locked" with the kick. It's just that it helps when the two can be together. Of course, that means that both the bass player and drummer need to be on the same page about what is needed. I play with three different drummers. On the same tune, I have to listen to their differences on how they interpret a groove. One in particular is more syncopated than the other two. Another is clunky-sounding, and I can never feel a groove with this drummer. The third guy is real simple and seems to notice if the bass has a line that MUST be played a certain way, and will follow me instead of me following him when needed. A good song to notice like that is One Way Out by the Allman Brothers. That bass line groove is not typical of a kick pattern, but a good drummer can pick the high spots of it and come along with you. Another drummer I couldn't play with used to do his own thing on that song. Turns out that everything he did went against the bass line and just muddied up the rhythm section. But, many tunes where there is not a particular bass line to be played can benefit from the bass doing what the kick does, if the kicker is doing something appropriate. For instance, the typical "dotted quarter/eighth/quarter" rhythm can work together. AND, the bass can throw in a little something extra when the time is right. That also takes a smart bass player to feel when the time is right. But alas, sometimes it can be hard to get a feel, depending on the tune and other players. About all one can do in a live situation is to listen carefully to everything and fit in as best one can, identifying what is needed or not needed. I agree that you don't wanna be bored just being imprisoned with the kick only, but with a good drummer it can be a good feeling to follow each other, and each can still have their own say when it's appropriate.

[Fergie Fulton]

Complex and simple is in the hands (or mind) of the player.
What i used to find complex is now simple, and sometimes i find playing what is in itself simple.... complex, because of it's application. Again it is in the hands of the player with experience and ability mixed in that will decide what is what.
Lets not confuse function of any line with the practicality of it, let the music decide what works best.

[mozarwasagenius]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

i hate bands who all they do is lock in with the kick. ya, sometimes it's cool, but a lot of times i just get bored.

Agreed

[mpdd]

you need a mixture of fast and slow plus simple and complex ime