Singing what you want to play during improv..

[bobbykokinos]

Got a question..

I think its common knowledge that being able to sing what you are wanting to play is one of the most valuable techniques to improv. If you can sing it, you should be able to play it if you are familiar enough with the fretboard.

Although, I do find truth to this, I also find some people who have demonstrated this technique (singing their solo while playing it) are singing out of tune or just not even close to the right pitch. Usual the rhythm between the singing and whats played is on but the pitch is way off.

How is this helpful if you cannot sing what you want to play in tune?

I'm not a singer, AT ALL, myself but can recite a pitch if needed. My initial thought would be if you can't sing what you want to play, IN PITCH, then using this technique is not helpful except for the rhythmic value.

Any one want to add their opinions or thoughts?

[DocBop]

Some aren't singing the exact solo they are singing the shape of the line or sometimes target tones. To me that is different from a Geoge Benson or a Oteil Burbridge who is singing into a mic' along with their solo.

[bobbykokinos]

Originally Posted by DocBop

Some aren't singing the exact solo they are singing the shape of the line or sometimes target tones. To me that is different from a Geoge Benson or a Oteil Burbridge who is singing into a mic' along with their solo.

Oh yeah. I'm not talking about people like Oteil or Bona who thats kinda part of their "thing". But, even when singing target tones, I would think you would need to be able to sing at least CLOSE to the pitch.

[lemur821]

I don't think so. It's just a mental aid. Trying to sing and play the same thing would be pretty confusing. You want to play it like you would sing it, and you probably need to be able to sing it to do that, but once you're actually playing it's the bass that you're really singing through.

[jazzbasser535]

Just listen to Keith Jarrett. One of the best piano players out there, but his singing is LOUD and BAD.

[bassjus]

There is this increadible guitar player I saw down the street at this jazz cafe that was singing every note of his awesome solos. I guess I really don't have much to contribute, you just reminded me of how awesome that guy was.

[BassChuck]

You might go to ask the pros section. Lynn Seaton used this as part of his solos all the time. Really did it well to. You might ask him.

[j-bass-kreep]

My teacher can do this . I'd settle for just being able to solo .. My solos sound so much like "scales"

[IanStephenson]

The trick isn't in the SINGING. Of course the singing is bad - if the singing was good they'd be singers...

The trick works because the melody they want to play is IN THEIR HEAD. Their singing ability might not be good enough to get it out "in tact", but their bass playing is.

I'm a great believer that if you can HEAR it you can play it. The point of singing is to clarify the idea in your head. In their heads they can hear the singing as it should be, even if we can't hear that.

Think of a line you're trying to learn from a record. Chances are that tricky run you fcan't quite figure out how to play, isn't actually in your head yet. Try singing it - you'll sing the first few notes, then mumble through the rest, because you can't actually hear them. When you can sing it however badly, it'll be in your head, and you're 80% of the way to playing it.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by jazzbasser535

Just listen to Keith Jarrett. One of the best piano players out there, but his singing is LOUD and BAD.

My fave was alway Jimmy Smith when he played. I'm glad they started putting a mic close to him to pickup his growls.

[doctorjazz]

I don't think it's so important to be able to physically sing it as it is to be able to hear what you're going to play in your head and then get it out immediately. People tend to emphasize the singing aspect of it as the voice is the most natural instrument we have and thus is the most natural one to express our mental melodic ideas, but if you're like me and can't carry a tune in a bucket, then you may have to put pitch aside.

[SLaPiNFuNK]

Originally Posted by jazzbasser535

Just listen to Keith Jarrett. One of the best piano players out there, but his singing is LOUD and BAD.

i was going to mention keith jarrett..

or even oscar peterson...

they dont really do it to be singing along to their solo, it just happens when they improvise... they just loose control and it happen...

[Snarf]

Shape of the line is one half of it, which you don't need great pitch for. Some do have great voices with great pitch accuracy while playing, like Oteil and one of my favs Esperanza Spalding. It's just not totally necessary.

The other half of it is rhythmic phrasing, something which so many people lack, and it makes their solos crap. Singing is one way to help their solos not be crap. Or it can just be an extra mental focus. Or whatever. In any case, it has its uses for some people (sometimes including me).

[justabass]

I think different people will express that in different ways as well especially when they get completely lost in what they are playing. Thelonious Monk would just lose it and get up from the piano and start shuffling around. Watch this clip round 3:20. Hes groovin so hard to the sax player.ha...I've noticed over the years that a lot of great players either sing or talk to themselves when they solo...sorry if this is a tad off topic.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9m9vZ1UhoU

[Ed Fuqua]

We're not talking about quality of vocal presentation, we're talking about the ability to HEAR a specific pitch in your head and REPRODUCE that specific pitch with your voice. If you can't hit the pitch, I have found, it's because you're not HEARING the pitch with any kind of clarity. The guys that are singing rhythms and not nailing any of the pitches AREN'T "playing what they hear", they are "playing what they know". Or hearing only what patterns, licks or phrases that they know where to put their fingers in the geographic location of the pitches.

A few years ago, I had a similar thought, that singing would help my phrasing. And so my teacher had me do a little experiment in my lesson, we played JUST FRIENDS and, with him playing piano, I'd play a solo for 8 bars and then sing a solo for 8 bars. We went through the whole tune and what I found (by recording this an listening back) was that the section sthat I was REALLY hearing the harmony and REALLY hearing the line I wanted to play, it didn't matter if I was singing or not singing. It came out, you could hear clearly what the idea was. But if I was not clearly hearing an idea (clearly enough that you can enunciate every single pitch) it didn't matter if I was playing or singing, the execution was vague, the phrasing stilted.

If you can't hear it clearly enough to sing every single pitch in tune, you just aren't hearing it. Singing through your instrument is fine, the reality is most people are just plugging notes in cause they are either sticking with what's worked before or becuase they've memorized what's "supposed" to work.
Neither of those approaches conveys any meaning.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by IanStephenson

The trick isn't in the SINGING. Of course the singing is bad - if the singing was good they'd be singers...

The trick works because the melody they want to play is IN THEIR HEAD. Their singing ability might not be good enough to get it out "in tact", but their bass playing is.

I'm a great believer that if you can HEAR it you can play it. The point of singing is to clarify the idea in your head. In their heads they can hear the singing as it should be, even if we can't hear that.

Think of a line you're trying to learn from a record. Chances are that tricky run you fcan't quite figure out how to play, isn't actually in your head yet. Try singing it - you'll sing the first few notes, then mumble through the rest, because you can't actually hear them. When you can sing it however badly, it'll be in your head, and you're 80% of the way to playing it.

+1

My band director from high school would always tell us, "If you can't say it, you can't play it."

Obviously, the idea behind this pithy little phrase is that if you don't have it straight in your head, your fingers don't stand a chance.

I believe that our minds work at light-speed - ideas occur to us in very complete form, very quickly. Sort of like an entire story can pop into your head and feel very complete - action, plot, setting, etc... But then you have to get it out and that process is much slower and reveals much about how the mind interpolates to fill in the gaps in order to facillitate very fast conceptualization. The purpose? To get you moving toward the goal - output - in this case, music.

As you begin to push what is in our head out to your mouth (to say it), you become more aware of what you actually know, and what you have actually interpollated. You then revisit the idea more methodically and start to fill in the reality of what you initially interpollated, thus resulting in really knowing and being able to play the part.

So again - it's one thing to think you know a part based on what you feel like you have in your head - but until you say it, you never really know what you actually have up there - whether it truly is a complete version - or one with lots of interpollated filler.