so i like jazz... what now?

thunderbolt · #1 07-09-2010, 10:41 AM

I never really cared for jazz very much in the past, but it seems like lately I keep "discovering" really interesting jazz players that have changed my mind. Django Reinhardt, Brad Mehldau, and most recently *drumroll* Charles Mingus. I love his basslines (even though they are barely audible). These people have shown me that jazz can be fun to listen to, unlike other jazzers where I feel like I need to have a degree in music theory to appreciate what they are doing.

I would very much like to learn to play jazz, but it seems so intimidating. Where and how should I start? I'm also scared that I'll be wasting my time learning to play since I've heard that jazz players don't care much for bass guitar, and I have no interest in learning double bass. Any TB brothers care to point me in the right direction in terms of training?

bassbrad · #2 07-09-2010, 11:03 AM

Jazz bass is a complex and rewarding pursuit, and it's ok to play electric-I do as do many others: Steve Swallow, Anthony Jackson....
First off you need a complete understanding of theory, scales, chords, voice leading and the ability to sight read music is a huge asset. There is a broad history of jazz and styles and it is essential that you understand them and can play them so if you can find a collection of historical recordings get it and listen, I have 2 collections from the Smithsonian "Classic Jazz" & "Piano Jazz" that have been essential for me. You will need to listen to everything you can get, and understand what the bassist, other rhythm players and the soloists are doing.
Find an older musician to mentor you, gig with and take what they say to heart, I have been lucky in this area and their input and the lessons learned are invaluable.
Mingus was a monster but to understand his music you need to understand the history of jazz up to his point in time, he was a master of all the proceeding styles and created his own.

ridgeback · #3 07-09-2010, 11:08 AM

its a sign that your getting old...i used to think that jazz was just a few guys playing different songs in different keys...

joehaven · #4 07-09-2010, 11:12 AM

Everything bassbrad said, except start small. Find a tune you love and figure it out, all of it. You'll probably wear out the pause and rewind buttons you stereo. All of the theory, history and chops are things you learn along the way, not a prerequisite.

J. Montgomery · #5 07-09-2010, 11:18 AM

The best way to learn to play jazz is to hook up with some fellow musicians, preferably near your playing level or better. Get a copy of the 'Real Book', it has charts and melodies of many jazz standards; its available in a bass version too with the melodies written in bass clef instead of treble. Its the bible amongst jazz musicians.

Some jazz can be intimidating, and there are a dizzying array of 'sub genres' within jazz and its unlikely that any one person is going to be into all of them. Jazz also has a long history, and its helpful to understand how the different genres evolved over time, often in a reactionary manner.

Some bassists to look out for are Paul Chambers, Ron Carter & Ray Brown. Anything with those dudes on it is sure to have some groovin' bass lines.

Some jazz artists that I really like are Dave Brubeck, Lee Morgan, Stanley Turrentine, Jimmy Smith, Charlie Byrd, Louis Armstrong, Oscar Peterson, Sonny Rollins . . . and the list goes on and on.

OmnitzGarima · #6 07-09-2010, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joehaven

Everything bassbrad said, except start small. Find a tune you love and figure it out, all of it. You'll probably wear out the pause and rewind buttons you stereo. All of the theory, history and chops are things you learn along the way, not a prerequisite.

+1

I also recommend the 'Jazz Theory Book' by Mark Levine. It's not an easy read, but it made a big difference, to me, in my understanding of what is going on.

I've been working on jazz for 5-6 years, I still have an enormous amount to learn, but I'm enjoying the journey.

Be patient. And good luck.

Ed Fuqua · #7 07-09-2010, 11:33 AM

The first thing to bear in mind is that there's a difference between finding jazz you want to listen to and playing jazz. If you want to PLAY, there are a lot of skill sets you'll need to become pretty proficient at.

But to listen and enjoy, that's easy. There's a couple of ways to go about this too, a lotta folks just go to some website (Jamie Aebersold, All About JAzz, Downbeat etc) and look for a list of "100 jazz recordings you must have", personally that doesn't speak much to me.
You already have a pretty wide range of presentation with the three players you mentioned. What I like to do (and recommend) is look at what you are already listening to and digging a lot. And then use the following couple of approaches:
1. who are the players? - see who the other horn players/instrumentalists/rhythm section players are and start looking around for recordings that are NOT by the same leader (Mingus, for example) but have some of the same players (hey, this record has Booker Ervin and Horace Parlan on it) and see how you dig that. And check out records that have the leader of the dates you like when they work as a sideman with somebody else (hey I wonder what the record with Mingus playing with Duke Ellington sounds like?). The more you start hearing different combinations of musicians whose playing you know with musicians whose playing you DON'T know, the quicker you can widen your perspective. And it's all based on YOUR taste and likes and dislikes.
2. what are the tunes? - since jazz is primarily about communicating individual interpretation within a context of group influence, there tends to be a large shared repertoire. So look at the tunes on the records you like (and with Brad, it might be best to stick to what "standard" repertoire he plays), and then start checking out other recordings by musicians that you may NOT be familiar with who play the same tunes. Neal Miner's dad made him a bunch of tapes of a group of 20 or so standards being played by a bunch of different musicians; the master class I did with Charlie Haden back in the 80s all we did one afternoon was sit and listen to HIS tape compilation of about 20 different recordings of BODY AND SOUL.

What Part 1 does is gets you listening to a bunch of different recordings and groups of musicians who, because they share some of the same musicians from recording to recording, may have a similar approach to things you already like. What Part 2 does is expose you to different approaches and different musicians. Plus you can start figuring out from the stuff you have if it's the tunes you like or the approach you like or what combination of those is meaningful to you.

It is VERY IMPORTANT, to drop the needle from time to time on things that you may have heard before and not dug (especially if, at the time, it seemed like "I need to have a degree in music theory to appreciate what they are doing.") because your ear gets deeper and more nuanced the more of this music you listen to (if you really listen and it's not just something on in the background) and something you dismissed earlier might just have been beyond your depth for the moment. Likewise, there's been plenty of stuff that I thought "THIS is the ****!!!!" 30 years ago that I find has NOT stood the test of time. Likewise, if you keep hearing how "important" a recording is, or every time you're around good jazz musicians a particular recording or player keeps coming up, check it out. There's a REASON that good players are listening to a specific recording or person.

StyleOverShow · #8 07-09-2010, 11:37 AM

Have been working in the straight ahead genre for nearly a decade and still have lots to learn. I use a fretless and and EUB and it doesn't really cut it.

Learning the jazz 'style' is one thing, including theory and practical applications (there are some jazz lines that are just necessary), but playing the big boy bass, the upright is really what it takes, IMO. I know many here will disagree that it shouldn't matter but the sound capabilities of the upright are unobtainable with smaller scale, electronic driven instruments.

Ed Fuqua · #9 07-09-2010, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J. Montgomery

Its the bible amongst jazz musicians.

I think that may true on the BG side of the board, on the DB side of the board, its' the "bible" amongst jazz students....

Tampabass · #10 07-09-2010, 11:40 AM

Like jazz? Tell all the girls you know - chicks dig it!

lsabina · #11 07-09-2010, 11:40 AM

Get Aebersold jazz play-alongs. Transcribed basslines (by Ron Carter and such) are available for a dozen or so of the volumes. A great learning resource, even if you're only listening to what any particular volume's bassist is playing (that is, even if you're not worrying about playing/improvising over the tunes--which is why most people buy Aebersolds, to improve one's improvisation). Start with volume 54--good simple tunes. And I believe a transcribed bass book is also available for that one.

**251** · #12 07-09-2010, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderbolt

I never really cared for jazz very much in the past, but it seems like lately I keep "discovering" really interesting jazz players that have changed my mind. Django Reinhardt, Brad Mehldau, and most recently *drumroll* Charles Mingus. I love his basslines (even though they are barely audible). These people have shown me that jazz can be fun to listen to, unlike other jazzers where I feel like I need to have a degree in music theory to appreciate what they are doing.

I would very much like to learn to play jazz, but it seems so intimidating. Where and how should I start? I'm also scared that I'll be wasting my time learning to play since I've heard that jazz players don't care much for bass guitar, and I have no interest in learning double bass. Any TB brothers care to point me in the right direction in terms of training?

Food for thought. Download this book, The Jamie Aebersold Jazz Handbook & look it over; http://www.jazzbooks.com/mm5/merchan...re_Code=JAJAZZ

A Google search for "Music School Evansville IL" showed at least 5 places where you could find music lessons. Perhaps one of them can teach you Jazz? Even better, maybe 1 of them runs group lessons, where an ensemble of different instruments play Jazz tunes together?

Good luck. 8-)

deckard · #13 07-09-2010, 02:02 PM

Just as an aside, if you like Mingus, you might seek out a copy of his autobiography "Beneath the Underdog"; as well, it doesn't hurt to read books about jazz history and the great jazz players...

My main advice is: listen listen, listen... and then listen some more.

In my mid-20s, frankly, I was getting bored stiff playing rock and blues - nothing against them you understand, but I wasn't challenegd by them anymore.

Luckily, I started playing in an 8-piece horn band (TOP, BS&T, etc. covers) and the tenor sax player (a schooled musician, and buddy to this day) turned me on to... Charles Mingus. As well, this fellow introduced me to many other fine jazz players: Miles, Trane, et al.

I started listening to Mingus and the others, then wanted to know who was playing with them, and who did THEY listen to... who influenced them.

Thus began a long, mostly rewarding, occasionally frustrating road for me.

Just my own experience...

Another aside: 6-string jazz bassist & teacher Todd Johnson has a forum right here on TB - you might mosey over there and ask him for ideas/suggestions...

bigtiny · #14 07-09-2010, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StyleOverShow

Have been working in the straight ahead genre for nearly a decade and still have lots to learn. I use a fretless and and EUB and it doesn't really cut it.

Learning the jazz 'style' is one thing, including theory and practical applications (there are some jazz lines that are just necessary), but playing the big boy bass, the upright is really what it takes, IMO. I know many here will disagree that it shouldn't matter but the sound capabilities of the upright are unobtainable with smaller scale, electronic driven instruments.

There are many that fell that way, but I think it's not true. Electric bass is fine....it's more important WHAT you play, not the instrument. Having said that, there are considerations in volume, tone, etc. to take into account when playing the jazz idiom.

bigtiny

bigtiny · #15 07-09-2010, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deckard

Just as an aside, if you like Mingus, you might seek out a copy of his autobiography "Beneath the Underdog"; as well, it doesn't hurt to read books about jazz history and the great jazz players...

My main advice is: listen listen, listen... and then listen some more.

In my mid-20s, frankly, I was getting bored stiff playing rock and blues - nothing against them you understand, but I wasn't challenegd by them anymore.

Luckily, I started playing in an 8-piece horn band (TOP, BS&T, etc. covers) and the tenor sax player (a schooled musician, and buddy to this day) turned me on to... Charles Mingus. As well, this fellow introduced me to many other fine jazz players: Miles, Trane, et al.

I started listening to Mingus and the others, then wanted to know who was playing with them, and who did THEY listen to... who influenced them.

Thus began a long, mostly rewarding, occasionally frustrating road for me.

Just my own experience...

Another aside: 6-string jazz bassist & teacher Todd Johnson has a forum right here on TB - you might mosey over there and ask him for ideas/suggestions...

A better biography for Mingus (Beneath the Underdog was unfinished and part fantasy....) is the book 'Mingus' by Brian Priestley. It's THE biography on Mingus.

bigtiny

skwee · #16 07-09-2010, 02:43 PM

This is what I did to start playing jazz, and here's my advice: go pick up Miles Davis' Kind of Blue album if you don't already own it (I'm sure you can find it used for a couple of bucks). Listen in particular to All Blues and So What, which have really simple heads to learn, and the bass lines are easy, catchy, and fun to play.

Find the fake charts to these tunes, or get Jamey Abersold's Magic of Miles Davis book. You don't need to focus on walking a bassline yet. Just focus on keeping the rhythm and playing the right roots once the solo sections start (it might feel like you are playing a rock version of these tunes actually). Then, once you are comfortable with that, try to emulate the kinds of walking lines you are hearing, without trying to nail note for note. Use your ear, and go at your own pace, and you'll start to grow.

Hold off on the Mingus, Monk, and other heavies (not to say that Miles isn't a heavy, but jazzers above, you know what I mean) for awhile. Maybe work on ballads or standards first: All of Me, Misty, Don't Get Around Much Anymore, Autumn Leaves will all teach you something, and there are hundreds more of course.

I Got Rhythym is one of the most important chord progressions is jazz, as is the blues progression. I'd say 85% of all jazz is based on those two progressions and their variations. You probably are already latently familiar with them, because they are found in most popular music of the 20th century.

Have fun and good luck!

bigtiny · #17 07-09-2010, 02:45 PM

If you're serious about learning to play jazz I would strongly suggest finding a good teacher if possible. If you have a reasonable handle on your bass technique and no bass teacher is available, then I'd try a jazz guitarist or pianist for a teacher. They can at least get you tuned into the idiom and start teaching you the theory and aesthetics involved...

bigtiny

deckard · #18 07-09-2010, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigtiny

A better biography for Mingus (Beneath the Underdog was unfinished and part fantasy....) is the book 'Mingus' by Brian Priestley. It's THE biography on Mingus.

bigtiny

Good suggestion!

However, unfinished and/or part fantasy or not, "Beneath the Underdog" is an autobiography and gives some insight into Mingus the man, as written by himself.

JMHO

shadow_FIX · #19 07-09-2010, 02:51 PM

Purely from a learning standpoint, you should be fine on the electric alone. It's acceptable for many big bands as well. If you want to work in jazz, though, you have to play upright. It has a sound, feel, presence, and drive that can't be replicated. Plus it makes you an insta-badass.

Tampabass · #20 07-09-2010, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigtiny

A better biography for Mingus (Beneath the Underdog was unfinished and part fantasy....) is the book 'Mingus' by Brian Priestley. It's THE biography on Mingus.

bigtiny

Another good Mingus bio: "Myself When I Am Real: The Life and Music of Charles Mingus" by Gene Santoro.

You're right about "Beneath the Underdog" - the "facts" Mingus presented in that autobio were quite unreliable. But it does offer great insight into his views on music and many other subjects.