So the songs in Dmajor and then out of nowhere C7, theory question.

[BillyIVbass]

I've been writing out pop songs to try to become a better songwriter as well as learn songs quicker. Basically you're in a major key and then there's a dominant 7th chord 1 step down from the root.

Journey's Open Arms chorus in D: D D/F# G C7

Matchbox 20's If Your Gone Pre Chorus in A: Bm E A D A/C# Bm E G

I don't see how this could be a tritone sub. Any ideas? Thanks

[BillyIVbass]

Ah looks like some borrowing going on.

To answer my own question, this site is great
http://www.ultimateguitarlesson.com/...hcourse12.html

[MalcolmAmos]

.................................................. .I..........IV.vii
Journey's Open Arms chorus in D: D D/F# G C7

Matchbox 20's If Your Gone Pre Chorus in
.....ii....V.I.IV.I.......ii....V.vii
A: Bm E A D A/C# Bm E G

Pretty straight forward. The D/F# and the A/C# are Tonic slash chords and I discount them as color chord.

Understand a vii and the V are both dominant chords and can sub for each other. The vii is a lead to chord and I assume it is leading to something you have not shown us.

So the progression in D is a basic tonic to sub-dominant to dominant.

The progression in A is a ii-V-I with a IV-I then another ii-V with a lead somewhere vii.

www.musictheory.net Lessons then Common Chord Progressions -- should help -- I quote from the site:

•Now that the chart is complete, there are a few terms that you should learn.
•Recall that the term “dominant” means the fifth scale degree. Since the V chord is built on the dominant, it is a dominant chord.
•Since viio functions like V (by going to I), it can also be labeled as a dominant.
•Hence, V and viio are dominants.
•Since ii and IV come before V and viio, they are usually labeled as predominants..

Have fun.

[J-B'ass]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Understand a vii and the V are both dominant chords and can sub for each other.

Just to clarify:
This is true if the vii is a semitone from the root, but in these cases the dominant chord is a tone below the root, making it slightly more complex than a simple substitution like replacing V7 with viio.

However, you are still correct that the C7 (for instance) will have a similar function to the V7 chord, and here's why.

If you take a V7, you can add a b9 and remove the root, leaving you with a diminished chord. At this point the root could be a semitone down from any degree of this chord and it wouldn't matter, the function wouldn't change. For example, in D your V7(b9) would contain the notes A, Bb, C#, E, G. If you discount the root, you can add in another root a semitone below any chord degree and have a chord which essentially functions the same.
The possible chords this gives you are A7(b9), C7(b9), Eb7(b9), F#(b9).

In this case they have taken the C#, and added the C below it as a root, leaving you with a C79(9) which functions like an A7. They then left out the b9 for aesthetic reasons.

So the end result is the same as the substitution that MalcolmAmos mentioned, but the route taken to get there is slightly different.

[Stick_Player]

How can one analyze these examples without the following chord?

Ex. 1 - D: D D/F# G C7

What follows the C7?

Ex. 2 - A: Bm E A D A/C# Bm E G

What follows the G?

But from the information supplied, these are likely♭VII⁷ or ♭VII chords, borrowed from the parallel minor key. Sometimes called 'Subtonic' chords. Not uncommon in jazz, pop or rock music, not very common in classical music in major keys.

[J-B'ass]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

How can one analyze these examples without the following chord?

Yea, it is a bit like cutting off in mid sentence if you don't look at where the 7 chord leads. Maybe the sequence just repeats, or maybe it goes up a fourth or down a semitone. The possibilities are manifold, and will dictate the role of the chord and how it should be played over.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

How can one analyze these examples without the following chord?

Ex. 1 - D: D D/F# G C7

What follows the C7?

But from the information supplied, these are likely♭VII⁷ or ♭VII chords, borrowed from the parallel minor key.

Yup. The next chord is a D. The progression is:

So now I [D] come to you with [F#m] open arms
[G]Nothing to hide, be[C]lieve what I say

The melody over that C chord is (descending) A G F# F# E D.

[Mark Wilson]

It's borrowing. We call it a Subdominant Minor chord.

If you take the minor scale (The name surpasses me right now... It's both minor scaled combined) and take the bVII, it become a bVII7 chord.

[sammyp]

Originally Posted by BillyIVbass

I've been writing out pop songs to try to become a better songwriter as well as learn songs quicker. Basically you're in a major key and then there's a dominant 7th chord 1 step down from the root.

Journey's Open Arms chorus in D: D D/F# G C7

Matchbox 20's If Your Gone Pre Chorus in A: Bm E A D A/C# Bm E G

I don't see how this could be a tritone sub. Any ideas? Thanks

lot's of great explanations here ...and sensible ones at that, however after i got out of music school, having been exposed to everything for avant garde classical to free jazz i came up with a little personal songwriting methodology - i figured that when writing, if i could decide on the "right melody" for a bar or two then i could try making any given melody note - any different chord tone or extension ....till i found the chord i liked for my tune ....

EI ....if i felt i really wanted "E" to be the next note in a melody but i wanted to come up with an interesting harmonization i might try "E" as a major 3rd - C maj, C7 etc ....if i didn't like that i might move to auditoning "E" as a minor 3rd - C#m, C#mb5 ....no? let's try "E" as the 5th - A maj, Am etc etc ....

this can be tedious but if you're trying to find a "new" progression it can be very rewarding .....

so ...my point is - not everything in composition has to be related as a "V of V" etc ......sometimes ...it's as simple as a funky out of key chord just works great with the song and melody!

[jsamuel]

This is actually quite a common progression in Jazz, it's often referred to as a 'backdoor' II-V and is usually used as a way to modulate from the subdominant to the tonic e.g...

Gmaj7 / / / Gmin7 / C7 / D / / /

which would be distilled to

Gmaj7 / / / C7 / / / D / / / (as in your example)

the bVII7 chord resolves to the tonic just as the V7 does

[Stick_Player]

It's borrowing. We call it a Subdominant Minor chord.

Huh?

The Subdominant chord is built off the fourth scale degree - IV. It is a minor chord if it's from a minor key - iv.

From the first example a minor subdominant (iv) would be a G minor. I don't see that.

If you take the minor scale (The name surpasses me right now... It's both minor scaled combined) and take the bVII, it become a bVII7 chord.

♭VII⁷ or ♭VII is from the parallel minor key.

Start with the key of D Major (from the first example).

Then go to the parallel minor key - D Minor. The scale is D, E, F, G, A, B♭, C, D. This is the Natural Minor scale.

Now, build either a triad or seventh chord off the seventh scale degree - C, E, G or C, E, G, B♭. This is the Subtonic chord C (♭VII) or C⁷ (♭VII⁷).

Keep in mind, a chord built off the seventh scale tone of a Melodic Minor scale is a half-diminished seventh chord - vii^Ø7. And, a chord built off the seventh scale tone of a Harmonic Minor scale is a full-diminished seventh chord - viiº⁷.

Yup. The next chord is a D.

As stated by jsamuel, the ♭VII⁷ is a V⁷ substitution.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by jsamuel

.....the bVII7 chord resolves to the tonic just as the V7 does

I've never learned when or why to add the b in front of a chord. I started paying attention to them recently, but, do not understand why the b is needed for example in the following.

:
A Natural Minor 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7
Note	  	Chord 	Spelling		Chord Name		Function
A		ACEG	1-b3-5-b7	Amin 7			I	   (tonic)	
B		BDFA	1-b3-b5-b7	Bmin7b5			ii ½ dim
C		CEGB	1-3-5-7		Cmaj 7			bIII	
D		DFAC	1-b3-5-b7	Dmin 7			iv   (subdominant)
E		EGBD	1-b3-5-b7	Emin 7			v	(dominant)
F		FACE	1-3-5-7		Fmaj 7			bVI	
G		GBDF	1-3-5-b7	G7			bVII

Little help needed -- Please excuse stealing the thread, looked like you guys may know.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

I've never learned when or why to add the b in front of a chord.

You need it in the example from Open Arms because the seventh degree of a D Major scale is a C#. Use upper case letters for major chords and lowercase letters for minor chords. A C major chord is therefore bVII.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Febs

You need it in the example from Open Arms because the seventh degree of a D Major scale is a C#. Use upper case letters for major chords and lowercase letters for minor chords. A C major chord is therefore bVII.

OK - I can see because the C# is now a C the need for the "b", but................
In the chart that I posted -- the III, VI and VII all have the b in front of them. Why do all three have the "b"? Is this because we are in Natural Minor and all three of them are major chords --- in a minor key (???). Sorry still confused.

The day is starting, I'll check back this afternoon.

Thanks for the reply.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

OK - I can see because the C# is now a C the need for the "b", but................
In the chart that I posted -- the III, VI and VII all have the b in front of them. Why do all three have the "b"? Is this because we are in Natural Minor and all three of them are major chords --- in a minor key (???). Sorry still confused.

You are overthinking this. It has nothing to do with whether the chords are major and minor. The numbers are based on the interval between the tonic of the key that you are in and the root of the chord in question.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by jsamuel

This is actually quite a common progression in Jazz, it's often referred to as a 'backdoor' II-V and is usually used as a way to modulate from the subdominant to the tonic e.g...

Gmaj7 / / / Gmin7 / C7 / D / / /

which would be distilled to

Gmaj7 / / / C7 / / / D / / / (as in your example)

the bVII7 chord resolves to the tonic just as the V7 does

This is exactly it !

It is a very common classical progression i-iv-ivmin-i.
With time jazz players changed the root of the minor chord for a root a fifth down and this colourless minor chord became in this example a C13(#11) if needed. This is a typical use of the Dominant Lydian chord.

[Stick_Player]

I've never learned when or why to add the b in front of a chord. I started paying attention to them recently, but, do not understand why the b is needed for example in the following.

Little help needed -- Please excuse stealing the thread, looked like you guys may know.

It's NOT necessary since the 'flat' (♭) is indicated by the BORROWED key signature.

Yes it seems odd, for example, if you are in the key of G Major, ♭VII is an F Major. But it IS flatting the F# in the key signature.

Therefore, 'some' theorists use it, some don't - just be consistent. I use it.

This goes for the III, VI and VII chords (which are borrowed from the parallel minor and are major in quality.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

This is exactly it !

It is a very common classical progression i-iv-ivmin-i.
With time jazz players changed the root of the minor chord for a root a fifth down and this colourless minor chord became in this example a C13(#11) if needed. This is a typical use of the Dominant Lydian chord.

I'm not so sure. I mean, you're absolutely right that this is a very common use of the 7#11 and the lydian dominant, but in terms of what the OP stated originally, I don't think the bVII7 really functions as a substitute for the V7. This is because it lacks both of the two things that usually signal dominant functionality: the 5 degree and the leading tone. In terms of D major, there's no A and no C# (and not even the enharmonic equivalent Db) in a plain C7 or C9 chord, or even in a C7#11.

I don't have the definitive answer, but from the likely voice leading, I find more convincing the idea Mark Wilson suggested, that it's in a sense closer to a SUBdominant functionality borrowed from the parallel minor.

We need to keep in mind that the V-I cadence is not the only possible one. There is such a thing as a IV-I (or iv-i) cadence as well.

You could look at the C7 as basically the ii triad of D MINOR (E-G-Bb) over a C bass. If it's a C9, you could think of it as either an Em7b5 or a Gm6 over C. Thus, subdominant (or predominant) function. The upper portion of the chord would be understandable as a ii or iv in D minor, but not really as a V AFAICS. If it's actually more like Gm-D than like A-D, then it's not really dominant function in relation to D.

[Andrew Jones]

agree,,, Sub dominant in nature and a model interchange chord borrowed from Minor Often preceded by IV....


Aj

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

I'm not so sure. I mean, you're absolutely right that this is a very common use of the 7#11 and the lydian dominant, but in terms of what the OP stated originally, I don't think the bVII7 really functions as a substitute for the V7. This is because it lacks both of the two things that usually signal dominant functionality: the 5 degree and the leading tone. In terms of D major, there's no A and no C# (and not even the enharmonic equivalent Db) in a plain C7 or C9 chord, or even in a C7#11.

I don't have the definitive answer, but from the likely voice leading, I find more convincing the idea Mark Wilson suggested, that it's in a sense closer to a SUBdominant functionality borrowed from the parallel minor.

We need to keep in mind that the V-I cadence is not the only possible one. There is such a thing as a IV-I (or iv-i) cadence as well.

You could look at the C7 as basically the ii triad of D MINOR (E-G-Bb) over a C bass. If it's a C9, you could think of it as either an Em7b5 or a Gm6 over C. Thus, subdominant (or predominant) function. The upper portion of the chord would be understandable as a ii or iv in D minor, but not really as a V AFAICS. If it's actually more like Gm-D than like A-D, then it's not really dominant function in relation to D.

I never said it was a substitution of the V chord. It is an improvement of the ivmin by playing another root.

I just mention that this chord is a dominant lydian by its construction, not its function as a V7. The Dominant lydian is used as a bii7 going to I and as a bvii7 going to i too. That is the name we give to this chord because it is a dominant like a mixolydian but with a #4 or #11.


The C7 here is an improvement of Gmin which function as the ivmin in D Maj. All the notes comes from D Major except for the Bb and C. The scale source is Gmin melodic.