Soloing in Chick Coreas Spain?

[WhiteKnuckles]

I figure with this being a 'standard' jazz/fusion tune that some of you may have some ideas on how I should approach this. My instructor is going to throw the sink at me over the next few weeks.

In the key of D : the Progression would be :
G^7 F#7 Em7 A7 D^7 G^7 C#dim7 F#7 B7

When soloing over this everything seems to fit into modes, except for the C#dim. How would you play through this or is something there I'm just not seeing?

I've done very little soloing, especially over such a long progression...any other tips to keep it flowing?

Thanks in advance...

[onlyclave]

When I look at the progression I just see a bunch of ii V ii V ii V ii V movement.

I'm not sure what the "^" symbol is. Is that altered? Major 7?

Anyway, G7 > F#7 is a ii V with a tritone substitution in F, Em7 > A7 is ii V in D, D7 > G7 is ii V in C, C#dim7 F#7 B7 is a ii V i in B minor with a Picardy third on the resolution chord which is what gives Spain it's characteristic sound.

To learn to blow on Spain I wold play the melody over and over and over and over and over until it got so deeply ingrained in my head and I understood where it was coming from. Then I would make little changes to a note here and a note there. This is a Lee Konitz technique he calls melodic gradients. It's going to sound like you're playing the melody to Spain for a long time, which is fine because you're learning to blow over Spain.

Or if you want the easy way out, jam on F# mixolydian for a little bit then A mixolydian G mixolydian and then F# mixolydian over that ii V i at the end.

Here's a secret that's not spoken of here: There is WAAAAAY more important things in music theory than modes. Way. More. Important.

I just had to put that out there.

Edit: There is a more accurate hamonic analysis down below this one. The OP clarified his chord symbology.

[projectMalamute]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Here's a secret that's not spoken of here: There is WAAAAAY more important things in music theory than modes. Way. More. Important.

this is truth.

[AJ Brown]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

There is WAAAAAY more important things in music theory than modes. Way. More. Important.

Like what?

(not that I think modes are important. Actually, I'm a play-by-ear guy, and wouldn't mind learning more. It just seems VERY daunting at times because there are so many doors to open. I have very limited time, and wouldn't mind optimizing my targets)

[WhiteKnuckles]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Major 7?

Anyway, G7 > F#7 is a ii V with a tritone substitution in F, Em7 > A7 is ii V in D, D7 > G7 is ii V in C, C#dim7 F#7 B7 is a ii V i in B minor with a Picardy third on the resolution chord which is what gives Spain it's characteristic sound.

Yes to the Major7.

I see how you could approach it as ii/Vs, but why would you look at it this way, and not just parts of D?

Or if you want the easy way out, jam on F# mixolydian for a little bit then A mixolydian G mixolydian and then F# mixolydian over that ii V i at the end.

Why did you choose G mixolydian and F# mixolydian if the key is D. The A mixolydian makes complete sense to me, but for the G...Lydian? F#....Phrygian? From D, those would be the ones that stand out as obvious with my basic knowledge of therory.

Here's a secret that's not spoken of here: There is WAAAAAY more important things in music theory than modes.

...and you leave me hanging.

[onlyclave]

I don't think Spain is in D major. I think it's in B minor which is the relative (same key signature) minor key. The resolution at the end to B (even though it is major, Picardy 3rd, remember) points to B minor.

I chose those other scales because that's where the tonal centers of the harmony fall.

Now that you tell me that you're using ^ to mean maj7 then the harmonic movement becomes clearer:
bm: VImaj7 V7 then to D major (relative major key): ii7 V7 Imaj7 and then back to bm: VImaj7 iidim7 V7 I.

This song just alternates between b minor and D major, but it's overarching tonality is b minor. Listen to it.

Ignore my previous harmonic analysis I posted above. Now that your chord symbols are clear to me I can give you the correct analysis. And notice I didn't say a word about "modes". I think one-of-the-more-important-things-than-modes-in-music-theory just might be harmonic analysis. What do you think? Here's another: Borrowed chords.

[The_Orlonater]

Onlyclave explained it pretty well. I don't get how it's in B minor, but I can understand it's in B Minor from it being the relative minor of D Major.

The progression is this: (In D major)
Gmaj7 F#7 Em7 A7 Dmaj7 Gmaj7 C#dim7 F#7 B7
IV iii7 ii V I IV vii iii7 vi7

Would the F#7 be the secondary dominant, because F# is the iii. Same with the B7 too,right, because is the 6th in the scale ,but it's a secondary dominant now.

In B minor it'll be.
(Minor chord progression is Min7 Min7b5 Maj7 Min7 Min7 Maj7 7 Min7)

B C# D E F# G A
I II III IV V VII VIII

I think it might fit D Major more, because since the progression starts on Gmaj7 and the G in B minor is 6th chord of a minor progression and it it's a 7 I don't think it might fit in B minor, feel free to correct me as I did get a little confused in this.

[DocBop]

Even more important when checking out Spain and Chick Corea is Chick's mastery of rhythm. Listen to Chick's solo and even more in later solo how he setups of rhythmic patterns of with odd number of notes. Then repeatedly cycles that pattern until it resolves. Later solo he would use a pattern that would take bar and bar to resolve sometimes making you wonder if it would resolve. So while deciding what notes to play listen to the rhythmic patterns in Chicks solos.

[onlyclave]

Take a look at these 2 attachments from a certain infamous source. The progression has been simplified here.

Bars 1-2 Gmaj7, which in B minor is the diatonic VImaj7
bars 2-3 F#7, V7 in B minor
bars 5-8 Em7 A7 (b9) Dmaj7 is a ii V I in D major, the relative major key with the A7(b9) borrowed from D minor creating a temporarily tonicized Picardy 3rd
Bars 9-12 C#7 F#7 B which is technically analyzed V7/V, V7 I, but in keeping with the minor tonality of the song it is a ii V I in B minor with another Picardy 3rd.

It doesn't matter what chord the progression starts on, what matters it what chord it ends on. If all songs started on the tonic we would only have 1/12 of the music we have today.

Google around for Picardy 3rd and Borrowed chords and you can read further into how this works.

[The_Orlonater]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Take a look at these 2 attachments from a certain infamous source. The progression has been simplified here.

Bars 1-2 Gmaj7, which in B minor is the diatonic VImaj7
bars 2-3 F#7, V7 in B minor
bars 5-8 Em7 A7 (b9) Dmaj7 is a ii V I in D major, the relative major key with the A7(b9) borrowed from D minor creating a temporarily tonicized Picardy 3rd
Bars 9-12 C#7 F#7 B which is technically analyzed V7/V, V7 I, but in keeping with the minor tonality of the song it is a ii V I in B minor with another Picardy 3rd.

It doesn't matter what chord the progression starts on, what matters it what chord it ends on. If all songs started on the tonic we would only have 1/12 of the music we have today.

Google around for Picardy 3rd and Borrowed chords and you can read further into how this works.

You know onlyclave, I learned a lot from you , now for you too teach me more.
How can there be a VIMaj7 chord if the VI chord in a maj key is Min7 and in a minor key it's a 7? What's it borrowed from? Isn't the V chord in a minor key a min7?
I read about Picardy 3rd's: "It refers to the use of a major chord of the tonic at the end of a musical section which is either modal or in a minor key. This is achieved by raising the third of the expected minor triad by a semitone to create a major triad, as a form of resolution."
Where did A7(b9) come in? Is that normally be from the Phyrgian mode in a maj key?

Bars 9-12 I'm lost. Help...

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by The_Orlonater

How can there be a VIMaj7 chord if the VI chord in a maj key is Min7 and in a minor key it's a 7?

Because in B minor, the key of th song, Gmaj7 is the diatonic (eg occurs naturally) chord built off of the 6th scale degree. It's function is submediant.

Originally Posted by The_Orlonater

What's it borrowed from?

Borrowed chords come from their parallel major or minor key. Parallel like C major and C minor, _not_ relative like Cmaj/Amin. Gmaj7, however, occurs naturally in B minor.

Originally Posted by The_Orlonater

Isn't the V chord in a minor key a min7?

Nope. The V chord in a minor tonality is major. That where harmonic minor comes in. Even though the scale sounds exotic (A B C D E F G#), harmonic minor is far, far more common than natural minor and melodic minor. The reason it's used is because that weird sounding note (the raised 7th step) is the 3rd of the V chord. That scale step (called Leading Tone) wants to resolve up be step to the tonic, Do. Search 'Kodaly Hand solfege' and you will see that the hand symbol for the leading tone step, (7, 'ti') is your index finger pointing up. It's showing where that note wants to resolve to.

Originally Posted by The_Orlonater

I read about Picardy 3rd's: "It refers to the use of a major chord of the tonic at the end of a musical section which is either modal or in a minor key. This is achieved by raising the third of the expected minor triad by a semitone to create a major triad, as a form of resolution."
Where did A7(b9) come in? Is that normally be from the Phyrgian mode in a maj key?

A7(b9) is the chord symbol indicated in the lead sheet from the Real Book and the Bb is in an inner voice in the piano chords. In this case it is just adding color because a normal ii V7 I in D major would be Em7, A7, D. Because V is free alterable, that chord could have said A7 alt. and it would be the same thing, however the harmonization of the melody in the other piano chords indicates otherwise.

It's funny that you mention Phryigian mode because a lot of Spanish music is based on that mode. This is 'Spain' after all.

Originally Posted by The_Orlonater

Bars 9-12 I'm lost. Help...

bm: V7/V - V7 - I

in B minor, C#7 is a secondary dominant (Google it)because normally that is a half diminished chord. It resolves to F#7 (V, dominant) to I (B major, Picardy 3rd, also a chord borrowed from the parallel major key)

[The_Orlonater]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Nope. The V chord in a minor tonality is major. That where harmonic minor comes in. Even though the scale sounds exotic (A B C D E F G#), harmonic minor is far, far more common than natural minor and melodic minor. The reason it's used is because that weird sounding note (the raised 7th step) is the 3rd of the V chord. That scale step (called Leading Tone) wants to resolve up be step to the tonic, Do. Search 'Kodaly Hand solfege' and you will see that the hand symbol for the leading tone step, (7, 'ti') is your index finger pointing up. It's showing where that note wants to resolve to.

I thought the min chord progression was Min7 Min7b5 Maj7 Min7 Min7 Maj7 7 Min7...

Originally Posted by onlyclave

A7(b9) is the chord symbol indicated in the lead sheet from the Real Book and the Bb is in an inner voice in the piano chords. In this case it is just adding color because a normal ii V7 I in D major would be Em7, A7, D. Because V is free alterable, that chord could have said A7 alt. and it would be the same thing, however the harmonization of the melody in the other piano chords indicates otherwise.

It's funny that you mention Phryigian mode because a lot of Spanish music is based on that mode. This is 'Spain' after all.

So no matter what progression ,or key I can always alter the V chord?

Originally Posted by onlyclave

bm: V7/V - V7 - I

in B minor, C#7 is a secondary dominant (Google it)because normally that is a half diminished chord. It resolves to F#7 (V, dominant) to I (B major, Picardy 3rd, also a chord borrowed from the parallel major key)

Wait, how does C#7 resolve to F#7? I thought the F# was a 7 because in B minor it's normally a F#min7 and you use a Picardy 3 to get a F#7.

Sorry if I seem dumb ,but this help is good for me..

[The_Orlonater]

You can also be talking about the Harmonic Minor progression, right?
In C:
I II III IV V VI VII
Cm ma7 Do(line in the middle,lol)7 Ebmaj7+ Fm7 G7 Abma7 Bo

I heard you borrow mostly from the harmonic minor because your V is dominant. Is this what you were talking about?

[deaf pea]

The_Orlonate - we use the harmonic minor scale because we're refering to HARMONY!

FWIW, I've always used C#m7(b5) - which is sometimes called C# half-diminished 7th - in the 9th measure . . . how can that possibly be C#7? Or C#dim7?

I've also always thought that the song is in B minor . . . but I don't really think about what key I'm playing in very often.
And when I DO start to THINK about it, well, that's when the music starts "sucking" big time right away . . .

+10000000 to onlyclave's "There is WAAAAAY more important things in music theory than modes. Way. More. Important."

like, for instance, "motif", "melodic developement", etc . . .

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by The_Orlonater

I heard you borrow mostly from the harmonic minor because your V is dominant. Is this what you were talking about?

Correct. In minor key tonal harmony, the V chord is virtually NEVER a V-7 chord (unless you're talking modal music, but that's different). The relationship of the tritone in a dominant 7 chord to the tonic and the root motion from the V to the I is what makes tonal music sound tonal - it's the fundamental core of tension/release in harmony. Technically speaking, you're not really "borrowing" it from harmonic minor, it's just always V7, even though "theoretically" speaking, it should be a V-7 built from the natural minor scale. Minor key harmony is really confusing, because you can find that the natural minor, harmonic minor and melodic minor scales are actually all one scale, and in minor keys, you'll find chords from all the scales interchanged. For now just know that in minor keys, you ALWAYS have a dominant chord on the fifth degree.

So no matter what progression ,or key I can always alter the V chord?

Basically, yes, although there is scientific way of looking at when you can use what alterations to get a more "in" sound or "out" sound if you prefer. You'll create a great deal more dissonance against the basic tonality by using an altered scale on a Bb7 in the key of Eb (V7) than using an altered scale on a D7 (V7 of III-), for example, because a lot more of the notes in the D altered scale end up being diatonic to Eb than the Bb altered scale.

Wait, how does C#7 resolve to F#7? I thought the F# was a 7 because in B minor it's normally a F#min7 and you use a Picardy 3 to get a F#7.

Like I said, in minor key harmony, you ALWAYS have a V7, its just the fundamental nature of tonal harmony to have a dominant chord versus a minor chord on the fifth scale degree. Its NOT a picardy third.

[HaVIC5]

FWIW, I've always used C#m7(b5) - which is sometimes called C# half-diminished 7th - in the 9th measure . . . how can that possibly be C#7? Or C#dim7?

I'm not really sure how its possible to construe C#dim7 as a valid harmony to use there, but C#7 is a very simple alteration that could be made to a C#m7(b5) to create a secondary dominant (V/V). Both resolve nicely to F#7, although slightly differently.

After going back and listening to the recording, Chick plays a C#m7(b5), so the real book changes are wrong (so what else is new?). But C#7 would be a fine choice as well if you wanted to play it that way.

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

After going back and listening to the recording, Chick plays a C#m7(b5)

Thanks for reaffirming what I said . . . I learned that song a long time ago (when it first came out) and was going on memory only, not having listened to the recording for at least 15 years . . .

[deaf pea]

Another thing that I remember from my youth . . . that last resolution . . . C#m7(b5) F#13(b9) Bm B(major triad) . . .

It first resolved to B minor (for 1 measure), then the last measure of the repeated solo section was the B Major triad leading into the start again on Gmaj7 . . .

[Andrew Jones]

Can someone post the lead sheet with melody that people are going from?


AJ

[WhiteKnuckles]

Originally Posted by deaf pea

Another thing that I remember from my youth . . . that last resolution . . . C#m7(b5) F#13(b9) Bm B(major triad) . . .

It first resolved to B minor (for 1 measure), then the last measure of the repeated solo section was the B Major triad leading into the start again on Gmaj7 . . .

You're right on both counts according to my sheets. I'd just quickly jotted down the half length progression that's played on the opening of the song.

Thanks to everyone for bouncing this around. My theory is still fairly basic, so I'm ending up with more questions than answers...but it's a good thing. Just don't stop the discussion on my account...I'm still reading.