Some "advanced" recommendations..

[ding_man]

Hey guys. I'm working towards becoming a professional bass player.. I'm majoring in jazz studies at a university. But when it comes to a lot of stuff I'm still on my own and I want your help to steer me in some good directions. If you can lead me into any series, book, online thing I'll be very thankful.

The things I want to get a better handle on are...

Scales.. I can play and finger (correctly) 2/3 octave major scales in all "3" positions (I tend to mix them) I can fake my way through minor scales and the modes, but I'll be honest I'm not as comfortable once I step out of one octave.
I want some guidance on particularly PENTATONIC scales and their application. But some sort of bass book to use as a reference would be really sick with "all" scales

Styles.. I want to become a better funk/R&B/soul player particularly.. but I just want to find an in depth book on styles

Theory.. I finished all four levels of the traditional "classical" theory at college. I want a "guitar/rock/pop" theory book for reference. Not so much for myself, but for teaching.

Advanced bass playing... any book that is just a must have for someone who wants to make a leap from competent to knows his **** up and down.

I know theres some threads and stickies.. but I just thought I'd post. This was just kind of a brain storm.. I've been thinking about all this stuff I've been trying to get better at and think I know what I'm doing, but I just could use a little more guidance.

[blakelock]

hey ding_man,

getting better has been easy for me (maybe cuz i have so far to go ). but seriously, pick up a book or 2 and start working through 'em. i'm using "mel bay walking bass lines" and it's pretty good. i also had luck at the local library. looked at a few books. found the best ones, then bought my own copies. you can also find great resources online. continue reading this forum and work through the website http://www.studybass.com/.

although, i have to say that i'm a little surprised that you're majoring in jazz theory but aren't familiar with pentatonic scales (not trying to be disrespectful). the 2 pentatonic scales (major and minor) are probably the most commonly used scales for rock and blues. they are basically just the full major or minor scale with a few notes removed. you can play a minor pentatonic all day long as a blues solo. most introductory bass books will likely have the pentatonics and other scales near the beginning.

good luck.
blakelock

[longfinger]

If you're majoring in jazz studies and a University, and want to be a pro player, here are my tips...

1- make friends with fellow students who also want to be pro players, and play together often. play, play, play, play!
2- listen to your teachers (classroom and bass lessons), even if they are saying things you don't want to hear.
3- do all the listening and reading required by your courses.
4- play with musicians who are better than you, at the same level as you, and less developed than you. You'll learn different lessons from all three groups.

[Fergie Fulton]

Best thing you can do is go out and play as much as you can, that will show you your real weakness if you have any. trying to workout what, where, how, from books is a great idea but ultimately flawed as you are trying to cover all basses at once. It does not work like that in real life. You learn a bit, mess up lot, learn a bit mess up a lot.....
After many years the messing up becomes less if you learn the lesson of why you messed up and put it right..or at least address the problem so its impact lessens through the years.

Hard fact of a pro is you can't be everywhere, so make sure you do the job right so you get to come back because there is always someone else that can do it. The fact that if you don't do it, someone else will is a double edged thing, the years ahead will teach you the best way to handle it..good luck for the future.

[ding_man]

Hate to sound like a jerk, but I think guys all missed the point of my post.

In my opinion, I can play the bass and pretty well and i know theory very well. All the advice you've given I've heard a hundred times and probably have no use for it as I'd probably give the same advice. I'm looking for some specific books or websites to help fill in some holes in my playing.

Particularly.. a scale reference particularly with advice on application.

Styles.. particularly looking for advice on R&B/Funk/Motown and also maybe a book with some general knowledge concerning lots of styles that I may be unfamiliar with... like Country (theres got to be more to it then 1 5 1 5.. maybe there isnt haha)

And... if anyone has any books or sites or dvds that really helped them as a "pro player"

[JimmyM]

not wise of you to ignore this good advice and keep on looking for books to fill the holes. your holes are not a result of not having the right books. your holes are a result of lack of experience playing in bands.

for example, most of us more experienced players don't believe in applying scales to music. it always sounds like you're applying scales to music, plus it leaves out notes you could be using but won't because you allowed yourself to let the scale do the talking. honestly, i'd forget that one. it's fine for your own edification, but on the bandstand, forget scales. they'll only slow you down and make your playing sound boring. spend way less time on scale theory, and way more time on chordal theory.

styles...nothing helps you learn different styles like digging out some records and listening to them. a book won't help you. you've already got a jazz education...THAT will help you. just listen to lots of records. but if you absolutely have to learn it out of a book, get standing in the shadows of motown. that will get you going.

theory...theory is theory regardless of the idiom or the instrument. look less for a guitar/bass theory book and look for a good general theory book.

advanced playing...you may have gone too far down the book learning rabbit hole and forgot about the real purpose of learning theory...making nice music. but if you want to keep challenging yourself outside of the bandstand, jeff berlin recommends using trombone books. if you search "jeff berlin" and ignore all the fighting that goes on in his threads, you'll find some great recommendations for books.

anyway, you're totally doing yourself a disservice by blowing off the advice given you. you are in serious danger of becoming a book player, and book players do not get gigs. why? because they sound like they're reading out of books. book learning is great for music...i did plenty of it...but nobody wants that in a musician they hire, not even other musicians who studied in schools. they want someone who can bring the music to life and make it sound fresh and exciting. and the things that works best for that...getting your nose out of the books and getting out and playing, listening to records, absorbing different styles through listening, etc., you're blowing off. not wise. quit looking for books to educate you on things you should be able to pick up on your own.

[longfinger]

Originally Posted by ding_man

Styles.. particularly looking for advice on R&B/Funk/Motown and also maybe a book with some general knowledge concerning lots of styles that I may be unfamiliar with... like Country (theres got to be more to it then 1 5 1 5.. maybe there isnt haha)

Ok then. I'll give some books for you...

- Bass Bible : A World History of Styles and Techniques by Paul Westwood , with 2CDs included.

-The Latin Bass Book by Oscar Stagnaro w/ 3 CDs

- The Great James Brown Rhythm Sections 1960-1973 by Allan Sltusky and Chuck Silverman. w/ 2 CD's

These are just books/CD's that can compliment whatever studies you are already doing in University, and all the playing, listening, learning you're already doing.

Have fun!

[ding_man]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

not wise of you to ignore this good advice and keep on looking for books to fill the holes. your holes are not a result of not having the right books. your holes are a result of lack of experience playing in bands.

for example, most of us more experienced players don't believe in applying scales to music. it always sounds like you're applying scales to music, plus it leaves out notes you could be using but won't because you allowed yourself to let the scale do the talking. honestly, i'd forget that one. it's fine for your own edification, but on the bandstand, forget scales. they'll only slow you down and make your playing sound boring. spend way less time on scale theory, and way more time on chordal theory.

styles...nothing helps you learn different styles like digging out some records and listening to them. a book won't help you. you've already got a jazz education...THAT will help you. just listen to lots of records. but if you absolutely have to learn it out of a book, get standing in the shadows of motown. that will get you going.

theory...theory is theory regardless of the idiom or the instrument. look less for a guitar/bass theory book and look for a good general theory book.

advanced playing...you may have gone too far down the book learning rabbit hole and forgot about the real purpose of learning theory...making nice music. but if you want to keep challenging yourself outside of the bandstand, jeff berlin recommends using trombone books. if you search "jeff berlin" and ignore all the fighting that goes on in his threads, you'll find some great recommendations for books.

anyway, you're totally doing yourself a disservice by blowing off the advice given you. you are in serious danger of becoming a book player, and book players do not get gigs. why? because they sound like they're reading out of books. book learning is great for music...i did plenty of it...but nobody wants that in a musician they hire, not even other musicians who studied in schools. they want someone who can bring the music to life and make it sound fresh and exciting. and the things that works best for that...getting your nose out of the books and getting out and playing, listening to records, absorbing different styles through listening, etc., you're blowing off. not wise. quit looking for books to educate you on things you should be able to pick up on your own.

Jimmy. Thanks for the words.

You know you are probably right with scales. I mean I know my one octave scales for basically everything usable. Besides that when I have to play I do just do my thing.

Also I meant no disrespect to the guys who posted advice. Its GREAT advice, but I'm 20 years old. I've taken lessons since I was 14, been to tons of master classes, and do have lots of playing experience. I've just heard it before haha. So if I offended any of you cats I seriously apologize.

I think it might have stupid to post this thread cause I am not a book guy, but maybe I'm searching for these things all wrong. The only things that have really taught me a lot book wise is reading music (I started the skill in books.. high school pep band actually developed it)

Also I'm still saying I'm interested in a guitar/rock theory book because I would love to see a book that organizes traditional theory in a way that is useful for rock players.

Thanks for all responses anyways guys. I guess the answer to my questions are just... hit the shed.

[ding_man]

Originally Posted by longfinger

Ok then. I'll give some books for you...

- Bass Bible : A World History of Styles and Techniques by Paul Westwood , with 2CDs included.

-The Latin Bass Book by Oscar Stagnaro w/ 3 CDs

- The Great James Brown Rhythm Sections 1960-1973 by Allan Sltusky and Chuck Silverman. w/ 2 CD's

These are just books/CD's that can compliment whatever studies you are already doing in University, and all the playing, listening, learning you're already doing.

Have fun!

And thanks Longfinger. This was the general stuff I was actually looking for.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by ding_man

Jimmy. Thanks for the words.

You know you are probably right with scales. I mean I know my one octave scales for basically everything usable. Besides that when I have to play I do just do my thing.

Also I meant no disrespect to the guys who posted advice. Its GREAT advice, but I'm 20 years old. I've taken lessons since I was 14, been to tons of master classes, and do have lots of playing experience. I've just heard it before haha. So if I offended any of you cats I seriously apologize.

i wasn't offended...it just seemed like you were blowing off good advice in favor of trying to get it out of books. there is plenty of stuff you can get out of books. there is also plenty you can't.

also, realize that 6 years is not a lot of time to have invested in your music. i'm sure you've done plenty of playing in your day, but put another 6 years into it and you'll see why some still call it "inexperienced." you're definitely more experienced than i gave you credit for, though, but still...

I think it might have stupid to post this thread cause I am not a book guy, but maybe I'm searching for these things all wrong. The only things that have really taught me a lot book wise is reading music (I started the skill in books.. high school pep band actually developed it)

Also I'm still saying I'm interested in a guitar/rock theory book because I would love to see a book that organizes traditional theory in a way that is useful for rock players.

rock players (and i include myself in that because it's mostly what i do) need to realize that the facts of music don't change just because it's their favorite style of music. besides, pentatonics and blues scales will cover about 95% of rock music just fine. if someone really wants to invest the time in learning the facts of music, jazz is the way to go. i'm not 100% against using rock music to teach, but i would definitely consider a rock theory book to not be nearly as complete as a theory book that uses jazz to explain it.

Thanks for all responses anyways guys. I guess the answer to my questions are just... hit the shed.

pretty much and for the record...i'm not against books like what longfinger recommends. it's just that with a jazz education like yours, books for learning how to play pop/rock music seem like overkill when recordings would probably do you just as well. might make an exception for latin, though...that can get pretty complex and they often use concepts that are completely foreign to americans who never experienced it.

[ding_man]

I don't wanna give the impression that I think I'm some hot shot that knows it all, but I do know a little. I think I'll step back to the band management and jazz forums for now haha.

Thanks for the words gentleman. And I definitely know what you are saying Jimmy. And I'm with you 1000%, but like I said I was just looking for some books for reference.

[mcm]

the best way to learn and understand it all is to start with blues stuff imo. until you understand where all music comes from, which is blues (except classical), you cant grasp more complicated music. and dont listen to slick produced blues, start with some blues from 1948-1959, anything on the CHESS label.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by ding_man

I don't wanna give the impression that I think I'm some hot shot that knows it all, but I do know a little. I think I'll step back to the band management and jazz forums for now haha.

bah! you're alright...don't worry about it

[sedgwick1489]

check out Berklee music's on-line classes. I'm just finishing up "Basic Improvisation" and can honestly say it's awesome. I have been playing for a long time and this course has greatly exceeded my expectations. It's full of the "stuff nobody tells you about". What I really like about it is you apply the material from every lesson in the assignments you submitt every week. You can actually see a use for everything taught.

They also have an R&B class FYI since you listed that as an interest.

All the best

[ding_man]

Originally Posted by mcm

the best way to learn and understand it all is to start with blues stuff imo. until you understand where all music comes from, which is blues (except classical), you cant grasp more complicated music. and dont listen to slick produced blues, start with some blues from 1948-1959, anything on the CHESS label.

I really agree with this. One of the more important teachers was multi-genre performer particularly blues, a little jazz, blue grass, and old pop. If people came and wanted to get to a very high level/understanding or be at a "pro level" he would either start them on a classical guitar track, a blues track (which would lead to rock), or a jazz track. Of course to keep students some guys just wanna learn songs off the records!

All rock up until around the 90s seems still holds a lot of that blues! Thats why I don't like it modern rock so much. Took the blues out of rock!

[retardedpossum]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

bah! you're alright...don't worry about it

Jimmy I wish you were my neighbor

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by retardedpossum

Jimmy I wish you were my neighbor

no you don't. i'm a little lax about lawn care