some scale questions...

[BrandonBass]

just wondering how should i practise scale? Im practising major scales right now, and quite familar with g and c major scales, i can play them up and down the neck pretty fast. But if u ask me to play an a major, then i would be kinda lost.

do i have to practise a to g major and know them note for note? i heard from my guitarist friend that he learn the scales by shape, but i heard some people opposing the idea. but teh guitarist is a pretty alrite player, pretty good at improvising too

another thing is, how do i know what key the song is? lets say ive never listened to a certain track before, can i like find out what key it is by ear and just improvise on the spot?

[trasser]

There is a sticky in this forum regarding that very question. (pacmans sure fine scale method)

[BrandonBass]

hey there thanks for replying. anyways ive been using his method to practise my scales. im pretty good with afew scales, but if u ask me to do a major scale on a key im not familar with then im kinda lost...

[Zebra]

You should listen to you guitarist just this one time I suppose
Learning scales by geometric pattern is the most accessible way to learn them on a string instrument. Ignoring the patterns would just be... retarded.
Learning via the notes they're constructed with will just slow you down, but you shouldn't ignore that approach entirely. A better way to learn the notes that construct a scale, IMO, is to learn the Circle of Fifths.
So, I recommend learning the patterns for practical use, and knowing the circle of fifths for the notes.

[Mastema]

I'm hardly an expert, but I'm teaching myself this stuff too.

How did you figure out the notes that made up the C and G Major scales? Apply that same formula to whatever key and find the notes... don't worry about speed. You technically could memorize the pattern and just apply that anywhere on the neck, but then you're not really learning the scale, you're just playing a pattern.

As far as key goes, I can't tell without looking at the key signature. If it's a jam session then you should be told what key it is. Most of the time, the chord that ends the song is the key the song was in (some kinda cadence? I dunno... I'll get there eventually).

Hope that helps.

[trasser]

Originally Posted by BrandonBass

if u ask me to do a major scale on a key im not familar with then im kinda lost...

Huh? If you know a major scale in C, just move your fingers half a fret up to play a c# major scale...the great thing about playing bass or guitar is, that all scales have the same ground-figure all over the fretboard. You should have noticed this, if you know a few scales?

[BrandonBass]

Originally Posted by trasser

Huh? If you know a major scale in C, just move your fingers half a fret up to play a c# major scale...the great thing about playing bass or guitar is, that all scales have the same ground-figure all over the fretboard. You should have noticed this, if you know a few scales?

yea but so far ive only been thinking like 'alright, a,b,c then....d, e, f ,g'

so for me scales are just note for notes i never noticed the shape, big mistake... guess ill practise both ways

[Jeff Martinez]

Learning shapes/patterns is a great way to get comfortable with scales. But I strongly advise that you learn different patterns for the same scale, so you can confidently play any scale no matter where on the neck your hand is. (Thanks to Yves Carbonne for teaching me a bit about that.)

[jvbjr]

Originally Posted by Jeff Martinez

I strongly advise that you learn different patterns for the same scale, so you can confidently play any scale no matter where on the neck your hand is. (Thanks to Yves Carbonne for teaching me a bit about that.)

Hence learning the modes.

[Arizona Jones]

Check out Wheat's Bass Book - it's free online.

How can you play without knowing some basic patterns and shapes? I don't understand people who say patterns and shapes are a bad thing. I never seen this "free form" playing style explained, so I'm not sure what they are talking about.

Brandon,

At the very least learn the basic patterns and shapes of the Major & Minor scales. There is only one "basic" pattern and shape for each scale.

You may even want to set aside the Major and Minor scales and work on Major & Minor pentatonic scales. Check out the link below.

Moveable Scale Forms -

http://www.wheatdesign.com/bassbook/...hp?chapter=011

Major & Minor Pentatonic Scales -

http://www.wheatdesign.com/bassbook/...hp?chapter=009

And start trying to figure out the circle of fifths!

[steveb98]

Originally Posted by Arizona Jones

Check out Wheat's Bass Book - it's free online.

How can you play without knowing some basic patterns and shapes? I don't understand people who say patterns and shapes are a bad thing. I never seen this "free form" playing style explained, so I'm not sure what they are talking about.

Brandon,

At the very least learn the basic patterns and shapes of the Major & Minor scales. There is only one "basic" pattern and shape for each scale.

You may even want to set aside the Major and Minor scales and work on Major & Minor pentatonic scales. Check out the link below.

Moveable Scale Forms -

http://www.wheatdesign.com/bassbook/...hp?chapter=011

Major & Minor Pentatonic Scales -

http://www.wheatdesign.com/bassbook/...hp?chapter=009

And start trying to figure out the circle of fifths!

The problem isn't the patterns, it that too many stop after they learn the pattern. They know which notes of the pattern are the roots, some only know the low root. That is bad real bad. If you learn a pattern learn what scale degree each dot in the pattern. Then you can do more than just play a scale.

Also too many don't practice shifting in and out of patterns. So you can start in one pattern, and shift up or down and finish in another. Also learn the arpeggios that come out of that pattern. Play thru a chord progression play the scales for each chord in eighth notes. Don't keep jumping back and starting on the root, go to the nearest note of the pattern for the next chord. That exercise will do you more good than you could ever imagine.

So patterns are fine if you learn everything about notes in the pattern and the patterns around it.

[Arizona Jones]

I just don't understand how you can play without using patterns - keep in mind that I class myself as an "advanced beginner" bassist.

I mean, if I play a "G" at the third fret of the "E" string, and then play a "D" at the fifth fret of the "A" string, to me that is a pattern. The most basic pattern, but still a pattern.

How does one who doesn't believe in patterns view this move? As moving to the fifth of the chord or scale?

I fully agree that the player should, at some point, fully understand all the moves they are making fret board.

[trasser]

+1 on all comments. Don't think notes, think intervals and paterns.

[lowenduser]

If you learn the chromatic scale - what notes are what on the fret board - then working out the scales should be easier. A "major" or "minor" (or whichever scale) pattern can be learned and applied to any key..... makes things so easy for myself in any case! Basically if you learn g-major scale, and if you know the chromatic scale, you should be able to work out all the major scales using the major pattern!

[Richard Lindsey]

As in many things, it's not a matter of either/or, IMO. You don't have to, and shouldn't have to, choose between learning notes, intervals, and patterns. They're all useful for different reasons, and so you should learn them all.

I'm simplifying here, but you need the notes if you ever need to read or analyze or understand what you're doing, which IMO is a Good Idea.

You need the intervals because they are what defines the shapes of scales, modes, melodies, and bass lines.

You need patterns because they help you internalize the physical actions you need to produce the sound you want. The idea is to make it so that you don't have to think about every single note or sequence of notes you want to play, as if you had to reinvent the wheel every time you got in your car or on your bike. That is, if you see a scalar passage, you're not thinking, "OK, the G is where now? and that A should be somewhere right around here ... and what's the best way of getting to the B from there?" Your hands can execute what you're seeing or hearing or thinking without having to be consciously reminded of every detail.

Ideally, one would be able to play a variety of scale fingering patterns for any key at any position (with a little stretching, perhaps), to name all the notes in all the scales if asked, and to define the intervals between any two notes.

Just my $0.02.

[GROOVEjunkie]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

As in many things, it's not a matter of either/or, IMO. You don't have to, and shouldn't have to, choose between learning notes, intervals, and patterns. They're all useful for different reasons, and so you should learn them all.

I'm simplifying here, but you need the notes if you ever need to read or analyze or understand what you're doing, which IMO is a Good Idea.

You need the intervals because they are what defines the shapes of scales, modes, melodies, and bass lines.

You need patterns because they help you internalize the physical actions you need to produce the sound you want. The idea is to make it so that you don't have to think about every single note or sequence of notes you want to play, as if you had to reinvent the wheel every time you got in your car or on your bike. That is, if you see a scalar passage, you're not thinking, "OK, the G is where now? and that A should be somewhere right around here ... and what's the best way of getting to the B from there?" Your hands can execute what you're seeing or hearing or thinking without having to be consciously reminded of every detail.

Ideally, one would be able to play a variety of scale fingering patterns for any key at any position (with a little stretching, perhaps), to name all the notes in all the scales if asked, and to define the intervals between any two notes.

Just my $0.02.

+1 Well put. ALL of it.
My $0.01 to your $0.02.