Speaking the same language as other musicians

[thedarkener]

Let me start by saying first, that I am *not* a music theory guru by any means. I read, I practice and I read more but I am nowhere near what a formally trained musician would be as far as knowledge (so please pardon if my terminology isn't right)

I've been playing with a couple other guys and they're both incredibly talented and know their ****, but for example, we decided yesterday to cover the song "Bound for the Floor" by Local H (SO awesome). I did a quick once over with a video on youtube and found that it (AFAIK) is in G# minor (goes G#, C, F#, C# basically). I might be wrong regarding if it's just in a different mode, or something, but my buddy replied to me saying something like "we play it in 'A'. Local H tunes down a half step (meaning a C#, because he plays in D standard and I do too when I have my Ibanez 4-string on me).

Ok, so here's the question. Does it *matter* what tuning you're in when you're discussing the key of a song? I am pretty damn sure it doesn't, but I could be wrong. They've both told me the same types of things before when we talk about songs, and I just don't know if they mean that playing "standard" would be, say, a G# and they compensate for the fret when you're tuned down...I'm really not sure. Any insight would be awesome. If I'm off base, what would you recommend me studying regarding theory to get me on the same page?

[tobie]

Originally Posted by thedarkener

Does it *matter* what tuning you're in when you're discussing the key of a song?

No. You just need to know your scales in your particular tuning.

[VinKreepo]

So I looked up a bunch of stuff on this song to see what you're saying about it all and here is the info lol

WHEN PLAYED BY LOCAL H, the song is...

Verse: Ab/Eb B Gb Db (the Ab/Eb means they play the Ab chord but you play the Eb, it gives a grungy effect)

Chorus: Ab B Gb Db

For a guitarist and the many chords they have to do, that would require them tuning down half a step FOR THAT ONE SONG. In a gig thats not effective. So in the eyes of a guitarist, they just play the same frets without tuning down. That bumps the whole song up half a step from the Local H version (since your guitarists didn't tune down). That means you just have to play the song like this:

VERSE: A/E C G D

CHORUS: A C G D

[link to chord progression above-- http://www.911tabs.com/link/?3652596 of course, ignore the chord/tab stuff at the top in the link, but the chord progression over the words is what you should be playing.]

So what's with the "playing in A" crap? Often, a guitarist is just telling you what note the song is starting on in their version. And usually that's also the key (as in A major). In this case, you were starting the chorus on G#, but because they didn't tune down, they are starting on A. So they are "playing in A."

EDIT : Crap I forgot to answer you question. Yes, you should tune to standard. Cause the guitarist will be tuning to standard and when they hit an open note, you would be hitting the first fret if you are tuned half a step down. So in Bound For the Floor there a some instances where the Local H bassists plays 0 fret > 3rd fret on the Ab string. When your guitarist is in standard and plays 0 > 3 on the A string, you would have to play 1 > 4 on the Ab string. That will be annoying especially since that's a 16th note and quite a stretch. Tune to standard and it will be much easier for you. [I know that probably didn't make a lot of sense]

Also ask your guitarist why he uses a capo and how that effects the key of the song and what you should play. THAT IS A VERY IMPORTNT THING YOU SHOULD KNOW. But it's late (4 am alomost) and I'll try to post some about it tomorrow lol

[thedarkener]

Originally Posted by VinKreepo

For a guitarist and the many chords they have to do, that would require them tuning down half a step FOR THAT ONE SONG.

I think that might be the little nugget of info I was looking for. So for my guitarist, the way he has to play the chords isn't really possible in HIS tuning since the Local H guitarist tunes a half step down from D standard. I need to study chords!! =) I guess as never having really to use them on bass I've neglected learning how they work. Thanks!!

[Muaguana]

Really it's just a question of: are you going to be relying on the guitarist's left hand position to determine what chord you need to play (assuming they don't play inversions,) or will you figure out the positions on your own? If it's the latter, you can be in standard tuning and just play what you need to play. If it's the former, you might have some trouble in standard.

[MalcolmAmos]

What they say and what is happening depends --

I'm the guitard in one band and bass in another. As a guitard we do play some songs in F which any guitard hates so we capo at the 3rd and use D G A. All that mombo jumbo keeps it in F and we do not have to use F Bb C fingering for the chords.

In those cases the directors tells the guys to capo at the 3rd and play in D, but, he tells the bass; "it's in F" and that is what he plays.

In your case if the guys said we play it in A, I'd take them at their word and play key of A chords.

Now telling you "We play this in A" is only part of the story ..... Ask is that what you want me to play in.

[bassbrad]

AFIK there is no standard for De-tuning since it is such a recent thing and there are so many variations. You will need to establish that with the other players, but in the case described you were not necessarily right or wrong.

[251]

Originally Posted by thedarkener

Let me start by saying first, that I am *not* a music theory guru by any means. I read, I practice and I read more but I am nowhere near what a formally trained musician would be as far as knowledge (so please pardon if my terminology isn't right)

I've been playing with a couple other guys and they're both incredibly talented and know their ****, but for example, we decided yesterday to cover the song "Bound for the Floor" by Local H (SO awesome). I did a quick once over with a video on youtube and found that it (AFAIK) is in G# minor (goes G#, C, F#, C# basically). I might be wrong regarding if it's just in a different mode, or something, but my buddy replied to me saying something like "we play it in 'A'. Local H tunes down a half step (meaning a C#, because he plays in D standard and I do too when I have my Ibanez 4-string on me).

Ok, so here's the question. Does it *matter* what tuning you're in when you're discussing the key of a song? I am pretty damn sure it doesn't, but I could be wrong. They've both told me the same types of things before when we talk about songs, and I just don't know if they mean that playing "standard" would be, say, a G# and they compensate for the fret when you're tuned down...I'm really not sure. Any insight would be awesome. If I'm off base, what would you recommend me studying regarding theory to get me on the same page?

This may be a practical issue, rather than a theory exercise.

Tune down to Eb & play in Amin. The pitch will be G#(Ab).

I've been asked to do this to accommodate a singer who finds the key of E is just outside his comfortable range.

[longfinger]

Hi there,

The key of a song is dependent on heard pitch, not on fingerings on a particular instrument. I do recommend that you learn your theory and develop your ear training.

I understand what's going on in your OP, and it's fine for your band to decide how you want to play the song. To be clear though, the pitch of the open strings does not dictate what key a song is in, but it does influence how one voices and arranges a song on a particular instrument. If your band decides they want to arrange the song to use the open strings only in a certain way, then the song becomes transposed to fit the newly tuned open strings. However, you can also decide to play the song at a given pitch, without using the open strings in that particular way. The key stays the same, but the arrangement/voicings are altered to use or avoid the current open strings.

Was that clear?

For your question.
No it does not matter what tuning you're in, unless you want to use the open strings in a particular fashion, and if you don't want to play with register jumps. (ie. open string Eb1 in dropped tuning becomes fretted Eb2 an octave higher).

Using a capo, or altered tuning does not transpose songs, it just changes the open strings. Those changes can then be used to transpose the song to a new key, or re-arrange the open chord voicings in the original key.

When confused, just listen to the pitch of the notes being sounded in regards to concert key (A=440Hz), and not the look of the finger pattern on a particular instrument.

[longfinger]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

I'm the guitard in one band and bass in another. As a guitard we do play some songs in F which any guitard hates so we capo at the 3rd and use D G A. All that mombo jumbo keeps it in F and we do not have to use F Bb C fingering for the chords.

In those cases the directors tells the guys to capo at the 3rd and play in D, but, he tells the bass; "it's in F" and that is what he plays.

This is fine, but I think it's really suitable for beginners. Depending on your musical goals, it would be good to out grow this kind of thinking.

Beginner way to think.
Key of concert F
Capo 1st fret: play in finger based "E"
Capo 3rd fret: play in finger based "D"
Capo 5th fret: play in finger based "C"
Capo 8th fret: play in finger based "A"

more accurate way to think:
Key of concert F
Capo 1st fret: play in concert F, open strings F-Bb-Eb-Ab-C-F
Capo 3rd fret: play in concert F, open strings G-C-F-Bb-D-G
Capo 5th fret: play in concert F, open strings A-D-G-C-E-A
Capo 8th fret: play in concert F, open strings C-F-Bb-Eb-G-C

The same thinking can be applied to altered tunings. The sounding pitch is the sounding pitch, and does not change with altered tunings or capos.

Another guide is, can we easily describe what pitches we are playing to a pianist?

[Floyd Eye]

Originally Posted by VinKreepo

That means you just have to play the song like this:

VERSE: A/E C G D

CHORUS: A C G D

That's how we play it. Standard tuning.

[VinKreepo]

There we go! A person up there said it perfectly... the tuning of the bass determines HOW you play the song. That means if you keep it in drop half when they are in standard, youll end up paying it differently which could cause confusion and a sore wrist if you end up playing alot of the 1 fret in stead of the usual open notes.

Here's a link to the theory YOU NEED TO KNOW : D
http://www.vt2000.com/basswork/chords/index.htm