Still having problems with 2-5-1

[cire113]

Ok i dont understand the basic 2-5-1

Lets say we are in Key of G


So A-D-G 2-5-1


When this is played its usually in 4/4... so 4 beats of A chord leading to D chord... then is it 4 beats of G? then does it restart back to A..??

LIke what is the basic 2-5-1 structure...?? Im just trying to grasp this

Like how blues is I chord,, to IV chord.back to I Chord. then the turn around etc etc..


I mean whats a basic standard with the 2-5-1 that can help me understand this?

[tjmdetroit]

http://edmascari.com/twofiveprogression/index.htm

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by cire113

LIke what is the basic 2-5-1 structure...?? Im just trying to grasp this

Like how blues is I chord,, to IV chord.back to I Chord. then the turn around etc etc..


I mean whats a basic standard with the 2-5-1 that can help me understand this?

The basic standard that has ii-V-I s is "Rhythm Changes" - the basis of many 32 - bar Jazz tunes

So - there are generally 2 chords per bar and it starts with the VI as well - I VI ii V - so in Bb you have 2 bar sections :

Bb Maj7 G7 / Cmin7 F7






You can see it in bars 4-5 and it ends with a nice big ii-V7-I as well !

[Chris K]

Playing walking bass, going from 2 > 5 and/or from 5 > 1 is done by walking either a 4th up or a 5th down in 4 beats. Subdivide these intervals into whole steps and half steps.

To go up a 4th you need to cover 2 whole steps and 1 half step in 4 beats, which means you cannot just follow the scale, but you have to build in an extra step. Basically you get the upper half (upper tetrachord) of the scale of the key of the song plus an extra chromatic note somewhere. This means you have three half steps and one whole step to cover the tetrachord. The last step is always a half step, to go from the leading note to the root of the next chord. Two possibilities remain:
half - half - whole - half f.e. (G - G# - A - B) C, or:
whole - half - half - half f.e. (G -A - A# - B) C

It's a matter of taste, but the first one is the most common.

To go down a 5th, you need to cover three whole steps and one half step.
Taste is important here also, but there are two general ways to find the 'right' notes:
1. Think of the 3rd of the next chord and make sure you play it going down to the root of the next chord:
Going down from G to C: In the chord of C major E is the 3rd, so you play (G - F - E - D ) C
2. Think of the key scale of the piece. In the key of C major, E is present > (G - F - E - D ) C.

In/going to C minor however: (G - F - Eb - D) C.

For stronger downgoing tension, you might also put in the half step as last:
(G - F -Eb - Db) C.

Some people start mentioning modes like Phrygian or Locrian in this case, but don''t let yourself get distracted. Half step last, that's all there is to it.

Good luck

[MalcolmAmos]

Cire -- Let's talk about that basic structure you were trying to grasp. Chords like to move certain ways and if we let them good things happen. That ii-V-I is a classic jazz progression. I-IV-V-I is a classic "kind of everything" progression - it's every note in the scale, thus those three chords will harmonize any melody you come up with as long as your melody notes stay in scale. Rock will use I-vi-IV-V-I or you may see it done as I-vi-ii-V-I. Notice how the ii and IV sub for each other. The rest of this goes deep, hang on.

The I chord is the tonic chord and can move any where it wants to in the progression, however, when you move to the I chord you resolve any tension you have built. Do you want to loose that tension right now?

The ii chord is a sub-dominant chord. It likes to move to a dominant chord. (this like to move to is the point I want you to see). The ii and the IV are both sub-dominant so they can sub for each other. Now as both have the same function if you use both together - side by side - you have not moved the progression forward - which is your goal.

The iii chord is a lead to chord. It normally will lead to another phrase. It likes to drag the vi with it. So here you do find the iii and the vi used together a lot.

The IV chord is also a sub-dominant chord. It too likes to move to a dominant chord. Remember what we said about the ii chord, same here, both can sub for each other.

The V chord is the dominant chord. It likes to move to the tonic I chord. If we add a 7th and make a V7 chord it really wants to get to the I chord right now. I think of V7 being the climax chord - anything after it besides the I is anti-climatic. Let's talk about the viidim now. The viidim in addition to being the diminished chord - which likes to lead somewhere - is also a dominant chord, however, it also being a lead to chord it still wants to get to the tonic chord like any dominant chord would, but, it may take a more round about trip to the I chord. As in a turn-a-round. Like viidim-iii-vi-ii-V-I. Want to bring the verse to a conclusion - use the V7 chord. Want to lead somewhere else and finally get to the I chord - use the viidim.

That leaves us the vi. The vi is your relative minor chord. It likes to move to a sub-dominant chord (ii or IV).

OK back to your ii-V-I. The ii likes to move to a dominant chord - the V is a dominant chord. The V likes to move to the I tonic chord - it did. This classic chord progression moves like chords like to move.

Take the I-IV-V-I. Yep, I can move where ever it wants to - it decided to go to the IV then the IV wants to move to a dominant chord - the V is a dominant chord, so we are OK here. Now the V likes to move to the I tonic chord. It did. How about that I-vi-ii-V-I is it doing what chords like to do?

The chord progression has the task of moving the verse along in it's rest, tension, climax, resolution and return to rest journey each verse should take. A verse brings up a thought, discusses it, reaches a conclusion then ends this thought and the second verse brings up another thought that we discuss, etc. Your chorus is the hook the thought you want them remembering tomorrow. The chorus' tune is what you want them whistling tomorrow.

Now the rest of that story is -- the melody line and the bass line (the chords) need to share some notes if we are to have harmonization. So it's a balancing act between moving the verse along and having melody notes and chords sharing some notes - at the same point in the song. Easy way to do that is to add the harmonizing note to the chord that is not harmonizing, i.e. add an extension, make it a sus chord, whatever, add the needed note, but, do not destroy the chord's function in the journey you have it taking.

That's the structure you were asking about. I know, it's a balancing act, if it was easy everybody would be doing it.

Have fun.

[251]

Originally Posted by cire113

Ok i dont understand the basic 2-5-1

Lets say we are in Key of G


So A-D-G 2-5-1


When this is played its usually in 4/4... so 4 beats of A chord leading to D chord... then is it 4 beats of G? then does it restart back to A..??

LIke what is the basic 2-5-1 structure...?? Im just trying to grasp this

Like how blues is I chord,, to IV chord.back to I Chord. then the turn around etc etc..


I mean whats a basic standard with the 2-5-1 that can help me understand this?

Take a closer look at the turn around. It is often ii/V/I.

There isn't that much to grasp. There are many ways to play over it, depending on the music style. Knowing a few ways to play ii/V/I & recognizing it in your ears or on a chart may be all you need to know. 8-)

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by cire113

So A-D-G 2-5-1
When this is played its usually in 4/4... so 4 beats of A chord leading to D chord... then is it 4 beats of G? then does it restart back to A..??

What we have not spelled out for you is you play chord tones of the chord shown on the sheet music -- as long as that chord has a place in the music. Notice in the following progression Am gets two beats and D7 gets two beats and that fills that measure. Now the G in the next measure will get four beats, as will the rest of the progression. So in your above question -- we look to the sheet music to tell us what to play next.

|Am/ D7/| G///|Am///|D7///|G///|
Over the Am7 you only have room for two beats how about R-b3 or A-C. Then over the D7 how about R-b7 or D-C. Then over the G you will have four beats in this measure so how about R-3-5-8 or G-B-D-G. Notice the 8 is a G up an octave.

Now your next Am has four beats so how about R-b3-5-b3 A-C-E-C (it's your bass line do what you think best - using chord tone interval numbers the R-3-5-7 intervals of the chord are always a safe bet. Learn when to use the b3 and b7)

Over the D7 how about R-3-5-b7
Over the G how about R-3-5-8 again.

Yes you can use all roots, but, what the heck let's liven it up a little.

This will explain all that R-3-5 stuff.
http://www.smithfowler.org/music/Chord_Formulas.htm

Go back and look at the sheet music Bruce gave you see how some chords occupy more beats than others.
Chris talked about choosing the forth interval in your bass line so it moves nicely to the next chord. Did you pick up on that?

Happy trails.

[Elrend]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

We can do exactly as you say: "When this is played its usually in 4/4... so 4 beats of A chord leading to D chord... then 4 beats of G then it restart back at A."

What we have not spelled out for you is you play chord tones of the chord shown on the sheet music -- as long as that chord has a place in the music. Notice in the following progression Am gets two beats and D7 gets two beats and that fills that measure. Now the G in the next measure will get four beats, as will the rest of the progression. OK what can we play over this?

|Am/ D7/| G///|Am///|D7///|G///|
Over the Am7 you only have room for two beats how about R-3 or A-C. Then over the D7 how about R-b7 or D-C. Then over the G you will have four beats in this measure so how about R-3-5-8 or G-B-D-G. Notice the 8 is a G up an octave.

Now your next Am has four beats so how about R-b3-5-b3 A-C-E-C (it's your bass line do what you think best)

Over the D7 how about R-3-5-b7
Over the G how about R-3-5-8 again.

Yes you can use all roots, but, what the heck let's liven it up a little.

This will explain all that R-3-5 stuff.
http://www.smithfowler.org/music/Chord_Formulas.htm

I think it's generally a bad idea to be all to concerned about hitting the chord change completely on time, I had a teacher who told me that the ultimate goal is to land on the root or fifth of the chord when the change occurs. Which of course lead to many nights of beating myself up for not landing on the root of each chord on Giant Steps while playing it.

This has however always stricken me as... well overrated. And by that, I mean that it will be correct, but it will sound sterile, and less melodic right away. You will make the chord progression clear, but for me it's always come across as unnecessary.

What I noticed about a lot of GOOD jazz bassists (especially more contemporary ones) is that they emphasize developing melodic ideas to their full extent, as opposed to simply pounding the chord function into the listeners head.

I think the fact is, that as a great danish book on tennis put it (loosely translated from danish): " Instinct is the keyword. When the match starts, it's practically impossible to think systematically. Not even the fastest thinkers can hope to plan their actions in the heat of the moment. The match will be over, while their brains are still planning their next move. They have to train by the right guidelines, so that their instinctive reactions can carry them through a match."

Drew Gress also has a wonderful lesson on this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk8CIh1s4cU

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Elrend

Which of course lead to many nights of beating myself up for not landing on the root of each chord on Giant Steps while playing it.

This has however always stricken me as... well overrated. And by that, I mean that it will be correct, but it will sound sterile, and less melodic right away. You will make the chord progression clear, but for me it's always come across as unnecessary.

Interesting, I refreshed my memory by calling up some video on Giant Steps. I see your point. I agree, there is a point where hitting the changes could give way to a more melodic bass line. But, I'm having trouble incorporating the melodic in my Country bass lines.

I'm now working on what Chris was saying about having the last interval of the old chord's bass line flow into the next chord - still working on that, but when ever I take off on any thing longer than a pentatonic run, the guys give me the fish eye. R-5's and a run to the next chord seems to be the standard in my neck of the woods. I do get by with basic chord intervals beyond R-5 but a two measure scale run just does not fit.

Your thoughts on a more melodic approach for Country music would be appreciated.

[Elrend]

I honestly have no idea about playing country (further than the R-5 + scalar run to the next chord thing). I don't think it would serve the music to do anything beyond the stuff you describe in your bass line.

The bass in Norwegian folk music is kind of similar to country bass, and that stuff would fall apart in a second if you did more than what we call "vekselbass" (literally change bass) which is all about riding the R-5.

So the way I see it, as a country bassist, you should be mostly concerned about making sure it sounds like country. There aren't many genres that are as liberal as jazz :P

[bucephylus]

Not a theorist, but here's the way I understand it:

IIm7/V7/I is a progression of chords which are diatonic (meaning to me in the same key), and which have leading tension tones in their upper voicings which resolve to the next chord, yielding net motion to the root.

What that all suggests is that you can play in nearly the same key through the sequence, keeping your eye on the key target notes (3rd, 5th, 7th) to reflect the chord motion.

There are differences in how you would communicate the sequence depending on whether you are playing a supporting bass line (defining the chordal progression) or soloing (adding something novel and interesting) in terms of what you do with it.

Those, to me are the basic ideas, but you have to do a ton of woodshedding playing diatonic sequences, playing II-V-I's in tunes in rehearsal, listening to how other players cover the form, and getting out and applying on the gig. Straightforward concepts, but a gazillion ways to interpret (substitute etc), which makes it clear as mud. Hey, its an art, not a science. GL

YMMV