Stupid question

Whammytap · #1 03-03-2005, 08:43 PM

I was just wondering to myself the other day, why is there no B#/Cflat on a guitar or bass? Is there a B#/Cflat on any other instrument, or even such a note? I seem to remember not having had that note on my trombone either, way back when.

Why is this?

Whams

paintandsk8 · #2 03-03-2005, 08:49 PM

B#=C
Cb=B

It's a phenomenon that happens anywhere in musical scales where two natural notes are only a half step apart. So therefore, E#=F and Fb=E.

tplyons · #3 03-03-2005, 09:35 PM

It's there, you're just not looking hard enough

They're enharmonic equivalents as mentioned above.

You rarely see them in music, but when you do, you have to think twice. I've been playing sax 10 years, and have seen maybe this occurence twice.

Whammytap · #4 03-03-2005, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paintandsk8

B#=C
Cb=B

It's a phenomenon that happens anywhere in musical scales where two natural notes are only a half step apart. So therefore, E#=F and Fb=E.

Ahh. I kind of got that. I know what a half-step is! Thanks both of you!

lowphatbass · #5 03-03-2005, 10:26 PM

You will first run into this in classical theory during analysis and what not...in A, an augmented 2nd cannot be a C, it has to be a B#..any C is always going to be described as a third in reference to A because it is the third note...Because of this you will see lots of double sharps (X) as well..You will get used to it....

the ombudsman · #6 03-04-2005, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paintandsk8

B#=C
Cb=B

It's a phenomenon that happens anywhere in musical scales where two natural notes are only a half step apart. So therefore, E#=F and Fb=E.

Well, that's true with instruments using tempered tuning.

But on a violin, for example, B# and C are two different notes, but they sound very similar to an untrained ear.

jadesmar · #7 03-04-2005, 08:44 AM

Should that apply to a fretless bass as well?

Or should we just throw some vibrato on and ignore the whole problem?

Black 'n Tan · #8 03-04-2005, 08:45 AM

ombudsman,

thats a rather hideous avatar you have there ...

the ombudsman · #9 03-04-2005, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadesmar

Should that apply to a fretless bass as well?

I guess so, since it has no frets. Or you could simply ignore the true B# and all those other odd notes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black 'n Tan

ombudsman,

thats a rather hideous avatar you have there ...

Thank you, I love it.

**Pacman** · #10 03-04-2005, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the ombudsman

Well, that's true with instruments using tempered tuning.

But on a violin, for example, B# and C are two different notes, but they sound very similar to an untrained ear.

Partly true. On any instrument that you can "tune as you go" (strings, brass, woodwinds, etc) B# and C can be different, depending on the musical context. But B# in the key of C# major, for instance, will sound differently than B# in the key of G.

Richard Lindsey · #11 03-04-2005, 10:41 AM

There's also the practical consideration that even though fretless, URB, et al don't *have* to make B# always equal to C, we often play with instruments in tempered tuning, so it's in our interest to be in tune with them. I'm also not sure how many of us--honestly now--could consistently make the distinction between B# and C anyway. I'm not claiming I could.

the ombudsman · #12 03-04-2005, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacman

Partly true. On any instrument that you can "tune as you go" (strings, brass, woodwinds, etc) B# and C can be different, depending on the musical context. But B# in the key of C# major, for instance, will sound differently than B# in the key of G.

Thanks for clarifying. I'm a theory newbie.

jadesmar · #13 03-04-2005, 12:35 PM

I'm still confused.

Does the B#, in the key of G, sound anything like a perfect 4th?

How would your ears determine that it is not a C since C has the stronger resolution in the scale? In what context could this B# be used to differentiate it from a C? What clues would you look for when deciding to transcribe/describe it as a B# instead of a C?

jazzbo · #14 03-04-2005, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tplyons

You rarely see them in music, but when you do, you have to think twice. I've been playing sax 10 years, and have seen maybe this occurence twice.

Just look in a real book, you'll see Cb all over the place.

tplyons · #15 03-04-2005, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzbo

Just look in a real book, you'll see Cb all over the place.

Hey, you're right!

Sorry, I guess I lied. I forgot about that!

lemur821 · #16 03-06-2005, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jadesmar

I'm still confused.

Does the B#, in the key of G, sound anything like a perfect 4th?

How would your ears determine that it is not a C since C has the stronger resolution in the scale? In what context could this B# be used to differentiate it from a C? What clues would you look for when deciding to transcribe/describe it as a B# instead of a C?

When writing music, you would pick your note based on theoretical rules.

B#, in G, will sound exactly like a fourth to any normal person. A performer might choose to play it as different from its enharmonic equivalent or not, but it's very unlikely that anyone could pick that out by ear.

geoffkhan · #17 03-06-2005, 12:43 AM

Personally I like double sharps or flats. The occasional triple flat/sharp can spice things up, too. No, not really.

Though I did play a Bartok song that used so many double sharps and flats. It has an entire section in the song that's in B#, so everything looks really weird when you sightread it, but if you work it out, it's actually quite easy.