Switching time sigs/ & key sigs mid-bar

[Red Wonder]

I was wondering if it was possible to switch these signatures in the middle of a bar? Could anyone help me with this question that popped into my head. I never see it in theory books or discussed amongst musicians often. I thought I heard Dream Theater pulling this stuff off on their Metropolis album but I wasn't quite sure. Does theory mention this concept?

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by Red Wonder

I was wondering if it was possible to switch these signatures in the middle of a bar? Could anyone help me with this question that popped into my head. I never see it in theory books or discussed amongst musicians often. I thought I heard Dream Theater pulling this stuff off on their Metropolis album but I wasn't quite sure. Does theory mention this concept?

It's not necessary.

You would just change time signatures in two successive bars.

Rather than changing into 3/4 half way through a bar of 7/8, you'd change from 7/8 to, say, 3/8 then into 3/4

[Red Wonder]

Okay that's very interesting! Approaching signature changes like that would surely make a great transition. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Ed Fuqua]

And you might not even be changing time signatures, you might just be changing phrasing. You hear 3 against 4 and 4 against 3 all the time, depending on how much of this stuff they are writing out (or having to read) they may still just be in 4/4.

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

And you might not even be changing time signatures, you might just be changing phrasing. You hear 3 against 4 and 4 against 3 all the time, depending on how much of this stuff they are writing out (or having to read) they may still just be in 4/4.

A fun game to play is to go on the Radiohead newsgroup and ask people what time signature Pyramid Song is in. (It's common time, but they'll argue till blue in the teeth that it's in 11 or 7 or whatever, because the phrasing drifts so much)

[lemur821]

For key signatures, you'd probably want to switch at the beginning of the next measure and finish the on you're on with accidentals.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by dlloyd

It's not necessary.

You would just change time signatures in two successive bars.

Rather than changing into 3/4 half way through a bar of 7/8, you'd change from 7/8 to, say, 3/8 then into 3/4

It does happen in practice!!

So the best example of this is Gustav Holst's Planet Suite.

In Saturn there is a part where the slow persistent and gentle tempo/key is violently interrupted mid-bar, by frenetic bells and a new dissonant key.

I have two copies of the score of this piece - a normal printed one and a facsimile of Holt's own hand-written score.

So, the latter is big and stored away, but on the former, there is a dotted line drawn down the middle of the bar, separating the two parts - with new clefs drawn in some places - in others, accidentals are used and a new tempo indicated.

[Red Wonder]

Thanks Bruce.

[Sean S]

Originally Posted by lemur821

For key signatures, you'd probably want to switch at the beginning of the next measure and finish the on you're on with accidentals.

Interesting...I think the focus of this topic is TIME signatures, though...

[lemur821]

No the title is, "Switching time sigs/ & key sigs mid-bar".