Taking piano lessons to get comfortable with chords?

[liquid-dream-ex]

So, i'm being kinda stuck with creating my basslines, finding to play the same stuff very often.

I want to try a new approach and work more with chords, not playing chords but playing around them, incorporating function-notes and such. You know, the Jamerson approach.

Now i wonder, do you think that taking piano lessons will help me with this, or should i rather get bass-lessons?

[mutedeity]

If you are getting good instruction on bass you should be learning about chords as part of your theory development anyway. Learning piano will help you if you want to play piano, but western tonal theory is universal to all instruments that are based on that system. In other words whether you learn theory on piano or bass makes no difference to theory itself. One thing you won't get by learning piano is the technical application of that theory to playing bass.

[bigfatbass]

The best thing ANY musician can do in order to better understand theory is to take piano lessons. It forces you to look at the way chords move and resolve in a way that stringed instruments just can't do, especially on a 4 string bass. Piano lessons are also a great way to help improve your sight reading.


To imply even for a second that these concepts/tools can't be easily applied to bass for some reason is complete nonsense, and at the very least, bad advice.

[mutedeity]

Originally Posted by bigfatbass

The best thing ANY musician can do in order to better understand theory is to take piano lessons. It forces you to look at the way chords move and resolve in a way that stringed instruments just can't do, especially on a 4 string bass. Piano lessons are also a great way to help improve your sight reading.


To imply even for a second that these concepts/tools can't be easily applied to bass for some reason is complete nonsense, and at the very least, bad advice.

I don't agree at all. No one is implying that the concepts can't be applied to bass either. Learning piano doesn't teach you the technical aspects of bass playing though and what you are saying about chord movement and resolution is just wrong. A dominant is a dominant on bass or guitar or piano.

What I am saying is that theory is universal and piano is no better for teaching theory than any other instrument. Piano on the other hand confuses many universal concepts by implying that there are 12 different tonal systems, rather than illustrating that all theoretical concepts are transposable.

[David1234]

I think piano lessons are a great idea for bassplayers. Do them and enjoy them!

[bigfatbass]

Piano on the other hand confuses many universal concepts by implying that there are 12 different tonal systems, rather than illustrating that all theoretical concepts are transposable.

Hang on, did you actually just say that the piano, the most transposable of all instruments, does not show that the concepts are transposable? And show me, how do stack and resolve a full 6 note chordal progression on a 4 string bass? Do you have extra digits we don't know about? And don't hand me the two hands on the fingerboard stuff. If you don't have a solid grasp of theory and triad intervals you will be taking the much harder path to that knowledge. And who said western theory is all you'll get? Sure the 12 tones are pre-set, but they aren't they also the same 12 tones on the bass, too?


Your post definitely implies the piano lessons would be a waste of time somehow, and I maintain that is complete nonsense. It is the best thing ANY musician can do to improve their theory and reading.

Am I crazy here people? Anybody else think they aren't worth it for a bass player, like mute d?

[mutedeity]

The answer is that you don't have to. It doesn't stop you from knowing how the chord functions. Furthermore being able to play a six note chord on piano isn't going to make you a better bassplayer. The thing that is definitely crazy is the way you are implying that piano somehow has some theoretical ability that a bass doesn't. Theory is theory. End of story. There isn't bass theory and guitar theory and piano theory. They all have 12 chromatic tones. A dominant is a dominant, a 9th chord is a 9th chord, major is major, minor is minor. All this about you can't learn the same theory on a bass is nonsense. The only difference is application.

Ok, all things being equal, some piano lessons can't hurt. It will probably help in reading figured bass against a chord progression and in some contrapuntal ideas, but will it teach any kind of theory that you can't learn otherwise on say a harp? Will it make someone a better bass player? Not necessarily. Once again theory is universal to any instrument that is chromatically tuned (even tempered).

As for piano being the most transposable, how does 12 different shapes up and down with black and white keys for each key equate to being most transposable? Other than that it is no more transposable than any other 12 tone evenly tempered instrument.

[mutedeity]

Yes, and when you are playing piano you will be adhering to western tonality since it is western tonality that dictates the tempering.

[mutedeity]

Originally Posted by bigfatbass

Am I crazy here people? Anybody else think they aren't worth it for a bass player, like mute d?

What?

[JKT]

I'm a little surprised by this thread. I assumed it would be obvious to most players of the advantages of piano/keyboard instruction. If I were king of the world I would require all students to take a minimum of 1 yr of piano instruction before taking up any instrument.

I came home from school one day and the piano my parents talked about was sitting in the den. I ended up taking 9yrs of lessons BUT, along the way I was way more able to teach myself guitar and bass. My folks couldn't afford lessons on every instrument I was interested in. Without piano I'm sure I would still be a bass player. But probably not as good.

On the keyboard, it is all there in front of the student-the basic structure of melody, harmony, chord theory, transposition. I still often think in terms of piano after 30 odd years of bass playing. Particularly with chordal extensions.

I have long thought that one of the worst things you could do to a young mind is introduce it to music with something like a flute.

JKT

[crazyguy832]

You don't have to, no, but...

Having played piano for 10 years before picking up the bass, I can say this: IT REALLY FRICKING HELPS!

Piano is the most natural instrument to test chord shapes and progressions and then relay them to a stringed instrument. For me, at least, it also has the simplest and most logical display as far as note value goes (I mean, come on, who doesn't know which key is middle C on a piano?). Theory, especially piano theory, definetely helps when constructing basslines as well.

I say go for it, man. Just do it. Make sure you start on theory right away, though, don't wait!

For the record, my mother played flute all through high school and in youth orchestras... she's still fairly skilled musically, so hey.

Now, a tuba... that's worthless.

[JKT]

Originally Posted by mutedeity

I don't agree at all. No one is implying that the concepts can't be applied to bass either... Piano on the other hand confuses many universal concepts by implying that there are 12 different tonal systems, rather than illustrating that all theoretical concepts are transposable.

Huh?

[mutedeity]

It's pretty self explanatory, unless they stopped making pianos with white and black keys that promote the hierachy of the diatonic system in C. Piano is just another instrument, it is put up on a pedistal because of the classical associations it has attached to it. Any theoretical concept you can learn on a piano you can learn on any other 12 tone instrument. The only difference is the physical limitations of a given instrument. Can you play a six tone chord on a 4 string bass? No. Can you apply the theory behind the notes and context of that chord to a bass? Yes, absolutely. Piano is not a magical instrument that makes you understand theory better than any other instrument.

[vindy500]

Originally Posted by crazyguy832

You don't have to, no, but...

Having played piano for 10 years before picking up the bass, I can say this: IT REALLY FRICKING HELPS!

Piano is the most natural instrument to test chord shapes and progressions and then relay them to a stringed instrument. For me, at least, it also has the simplest and most logical display as far as note value goes (I mean, come on, who doesn't know which key is middle C on a piano?). Theory, especially piano theory, definetely helps when constructing basslines as well.

I say go for it, man. Just do it. Make sure you start on theory right away, though, don't wait!

For the record, my mother played flute all through high school and in youth orchestras... she's still fairly skilled musically, so hey.

Now, a tuba... that's worthless.

raises hand

[crazyguy832]

http://www.pianofinders.com/pianoman...eIsMiddleC.htm

^_^

[uhdum]

Originally Posted by bigfatbass

The best thing ANY musician can do in order to better understand theory is to take piano lessons. It forces you to look at the way chords move and resolve in a way that stringed instruments just can't do, especially on a 4 string bass. Piano lessons are also a great way to help improve your sight reading.


To imply even for a second that these concepts/tools can't be easily applied to bass for some reason is complete nonsense, and at the very least, bad advice.

Excellent advice.... possibly the best on this site. EVERY musician needs to learn some piano... I'm sorry if some of you disagree. A keyboard is simply the best, easiest, clearest way to learn about the fundamentals of harmony and theory. Even if you don't walk away from the piano with a newfound knowledge of playing bass, your musicianship will improve for the better.

Can you learn these concepts on another instrument? Absolutely, but visually, it is laid out best on a piano or keyboard. Does it make this instrument superior or "better?" Not at all. But it does clearly display the essentials of harmony and theory more clearly than any other instrument.

[tZer]

Piano is a fantastic way to understand chords.

While Mutedeity can support his position (that you can learn about chords and other aspect of theory on just about any instrument), I am not completely sure why there's opposition to learning piano as a way to better understand how chords work. It probably comes down to how people process information - but for me and many other musicians with whom I associate, the piano is a very useful and more direct way to see how chords work.

Piano is about as literal a way to fully grasp how the intervals in a chord relate to each other in a visually linear fashion. Put your thumb on middle C - go up a Maj 3rd or 2 whole steps or 4 half steps (black key, white key, black key white key) - middle finger on E - go up a Maj 3rd or 2 whole steps or 4 half steps (black key, white key, black key white key) and put your pinky on G - Look down - see the linear relation between C, E, G without having to "conceptually translate it in your mind" due to strings, flute or sax keys, the distance from the mouthpiece to the end of the slide on a trombone...

Pretty darn obvious in the most direct, 1 to 1 way to see the reality of chord intervals.

Why that would not help someone better understand chords, chord movement, etc... eludes me.

Since chords are built using degrees of scales, which are typically pretty linear - seeing how they form on an instrument that is linear is a close it gets to reality.

Now it would be up to you to take that more linear, more literal representation and apply it to an instrument that does not necessarily follow the same 100% linear environment, but that's not hard to do. Even though you could, you would probably NOT want to be trying to play your scales in a 100% linear fashion on a bass - meaning, you would not stay on one string and follow the wwhwwwh interval pattern to play a major scale. You'd more than likely choose to use other strings - which visually breaks up the linear thing.

[DocBop]

Learning to play piano is great idea for a many reasons.

First it is great for learning theory, things layout visually and it has the range to make it easier to hear. Speaking of hearing piano is best to practice ET on. If you study music theory most the examples are written for piano, so you will be able to play the examples. If you go pro on bass you will end up on gigs that you're playing songs you don't know and no chart many bass players in that situation will look at the KB players left hand to pickup the roots of chords so you will know how to. Also over the last decade or more a lot of producers are using KB bass instead of BG, so many studio bass players double on KB bass. When you play bass only on a bass that is the only POV and players tend to stick to familiar patterns. If you also play piano you will think about bass from another POV and the two will influence bass on both instruments. Last in modern recording so much is done on computers with a MIDI KB controller so knowing how to play KB is a plus for composition, recording, and producing.

So there are nothing but positives to learning piano and will help your bass playing in long run.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by DocBop

Learning to play piano is great idea for a many reasons.

First it is great for learning theory, things layout visually and it has the range to make it easier to hear. Speaking of hearing piano is best to practice ET on. If you study music theory most the examples are written for piano, so you will be able to play the examples. If you go pro on bass you will end up on gigs that you're playing songs you don't know and no chart many bass players in that situation will look at the KB players left hand to pickup the roots of chords so you will know how to. Also over the last decade or more a lot of producers are using KB bass instead of BG, so many studio bass players double on KB bass. When you play bass only on a bass that is the only POV and players tend to stick to familiar patterns. If you also play piano you will think about bass from another POV and the two will influence bass on both instruments. Last in modern recording so much is done on computers with a MIDI KB controller so knowing how to play KB is a plus for composition, recording, and producing.

So there are nothing but positives to learning piano and will help your bass playing in long run.

+1

As I've posted here before, piano is the universal constant in western music study. It doesn't matter if you play strings, blow a horn, sing or even play percussion, ALL of those performers WILL study piano at the collegiate level. As the holder of multiple college music degrees I can attest to how many hours I spent in the Univ. of Oregon's practice rooms playing piano.

Even though I only play piano now as a party trick, anything music related I visualize in my head is related to a keyboard. EVERYTHING. I can see any scale, chord, progression and cadence on my mental keyboard.

One of the very bust things you can do for your musical development is take piano lessons. Music is music and theory is theory regardless of what instrument you are playing, but if you can understand it on multiple instruments that will separate you, the _musician_ from the rest of the bass operators.

[JKT]

Originally Posted by mutedeity

It's pretty self explanatory, unless they stopped making pianos with white and black keys that promote the hierachy of the diatonic system in C. Piano is just another instrument, it is put up on a pedistal because of the classical associations it has attached to it. Any theoretical concept you can learn on a piano you can learn on any other 12 tone instrument. The only difference is the physical limitations of a given instrument. Can you play a six tone chord on a 4 string bass? No. Can you apply the theory behind the notes and context of that chord to a bass? Yes, absolutely. Piano is not a magical instrument that makes you understand theory better than any other instrument.

With respect, I think you're missing most of the point and in the process making it more difficult. Those of us that for the sake of argument are "pro piano" in this thread are saying basically that the visual, lineal aspect of a keyboard make it easier for most people, most of the time to see how chord structure and harmony work. As opposedto lets say a saxaphone or trumpet. I don't see how one can say that the by comparison esoteric nature and construction of a wind instrument can be "simpler" or "exactly the same" as the keyboard in demonstrating something like chord theory. Wouldn't you agree?

JKT