Talentless asking for advice

[kipsus]

[boring part]
To begin with, I was born totally tone deaf (although my brother and my mother both have perfect or at least perfect relative pitch). Then at about 16th year of my life I got sick of remarks such as "elephant stomped on your ear" when I tried to sing. Cause I like to sing (or should I say make noises) very much. I started thinking like "if some people can't stand me singing, then there must be something more to that than shouting". So I decided I needed a musical instrument of some kind. And I got one - diatonic harmonica.

The simplicity of the instrument made it easy to fool around with notes and that was nice for about a year or two. By that time I still couldn't improvise anything nice or musical (which is kinda easy on a diatonic instrument) but I already knew something about how nice an octave sounds and that minor second doesn't.

Then about a year and a half ago I saw a bass guitar at a local music store. And that moment was like "wow, this is sooo nice, I gotta try to play that thing. If it's anything, it's this.. thing". I was lucky enough to get my father to buy it. I had no idea what bass was, how to play it and I was actually one of the dudes that say "look, that guitar has only 4 strings". But the feeling was wonderful and soon I took a dozen lessons from one of the best jazz bassists in the country.

After about a year of doodling with bass I took the harmonica again. And guess what, I instantly played something very melodic. Then I realized that something has changed, seriously.

At that point I started to sing again - intervals, major scale etc. And it was hard as hell.. Now I can hum to most songs melody/bass line without too much dissonance.

And about a year ago my musical taste changed from heavy/death metal to Sting. Now that's quite a change!

Couple of months ago I got myself an unlined fretless. Simply because it was a good deal and I had the money. So I started practicing intervals. I got pretty good at octaves/fifths. But I cant hear the root/third really well. I notice when it's really out of tune but that happens when its about quarter tone flat!

I did various exercises on musical notation for a month or so and finally gave up. Dang, reading assembly code is easier than this system bubbles and lines..

I'm 20 now, I don't have any plans associated with music (I study physics at the university) but I do like to get more of that "musical consciousness".

[/boring part]

The question is, does anyone have any suggestions on how to do that? Now most more advanced jazz records sound quite similar to me and I don't really get the geniality behind the walking bass, most of the time it's just bum bum bum up and down... I want to change that. My goal is to be able hear a record and say "hey, that chord change was awesome".

I know I will eventually get there.. But it may take 20 years Maybe some of you have done similar "struggling with nature" or have something to suggest, I'd be very glad to hear any tips. I'm not talking about technique but about general musical self-education.

Oh, and please don't say anything about "bashing your head against a brick wall" or "practice your ass off"

Thanks,
Kipsus

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by kipsus

Couple of months ago I got myself an unlined fretless. Simply because it was a good deal and I had the money. So I started practicing intervals. I got pretty good at octaves/fifths. But I cant hear the root/third really well. I notice when it's really out of tune but that happens when its about quarter tone flat!

That's funny. Due to poorly chosen tuning compromises, thirds are around a quarter tone (a bit less) sharper than they would be in an "in tune" world. You just need to learn that the intervals that sound "right" aren't necessarily the ones that everybody has agreed to use.

[Sean Baumann]

I seriously don't think tone deaf really exists, or if it does it is probably extermely rare. If it did, you wouldn't enjoy music at all as you wouldn't understand any melody. Heck, I bet you can sing happy birthday or your ABCs, that prooves it right there.

I think your case is more that you have not trained your ears in the proper way. Since you say you know the sound of the interval between root and 5, then you know you can learn them all.

My ear was absolutely terrible when I first started playing. It has improved, but I still have goals for myself to get better. Here is some advice as far as ear training:

1.) SING. If you are not attempting to sing what you play, then you will not improve. Work on this daily. Plan the root, sing the root, play the interval and sing the interval.

2.) Find an easily identifiable melody that uses the interval, this will help you remember it. For example, for the major 3rd, I think about that "charge song" the organ always plays a baseball games. The major third is the interval between the first two notes of that phrase. For the minor 3rd, I always think of that bratty thing kids sing "nah nah na nah nah" to taunt or whatever heheh. etc...

[BassChuck]

Do you talk in a mono-tone. I'd rather guess not. You probably aren't tone deaf, but have a little problem co-ordinating your voice to what you hear. From all that you say.. you're on your way. Just keep it simple.

Originally Posted by Sean Baumann

For example, for the major 3rd, I think about that "charge song" the organ always plays a baseball games. The major third is the interval between the first two notes of that phrase.

You might want to re-think that one. I think the first interval is a perfect fourth. Then comes the major 3rd and then a minor third.

[JimmyM]

You are correct, Chuck.

[Sean Baumann]

Here and I always thought it was 1-3-5-8-5-8. It still works for me. Thanks for pointing that out. If I had learned it right to begin with (or remembered it, even) then I could have used it for the P4.

[Mark Wilson]

I have perfect relitave pitch. I was born with it, played piano since I was 3, and have been playing flute since I was 7.
Now, i'm at Humber College for a program in Jazz bass.

My suggestion is www.musictheory.net or www.teoria.com
Both websites are great for training.

You said you can't hear Root-3rd. but, you can hear root-5th. My trick is to listen and build up a major triad. 1-3-5.

Example on the bass would be G-B-D. I don't know how well you know your notes, but it's...

G= 3rd fret- E string
B= 2nd Fret- A string
D=5th fret- A string.

Soon enough you'll be able to hear those intervals.
Another suggestion I have is to sit down at a piano, and play a C. Then, sing up a major scale to a specific interval (6th lets say)
if you have NO experience playing piano, PM me and i'll map out a basic keyboard for you.

intervals are incredibly important when it comes to hearing melodies, and key changes. After all, a melody is built upon specific intervals.

Any questions, feel free to PM and i'll help you out best I can

[kipsus]

Tahnks guy, great tips. Didn't expect such warm reaction (I was suggested quitting music or just being happy with what I have at my local forum..)

Originally Posted by Sean Baumann

I seriously don't think tone deaf really exists, or if it does it is probably extermely rare. If it did, you wouldn't enjoy music at all as you wouldn't understand any melody. Heck, I bet you can sing happy birthday or your ABCs, that prooves it right there.

Well bout those Happy Birthday songs.. Now I can sing them pretty much correctly. But I have no idea what pseudo melodic noises I was making like 5 years ago..

1.) SING. If you are not attempting to sing what you play, then you will not improve. Work on this daily. Plan the root, sing the root, play the interval and sing the interval.

Yeah I do that all the time. I even have trouble humming melody on some songs as the bass line simply sounds better

2.) Find an easily identifiable melody that uses the interval, this will help you remember it. For example, for the major 3rd, I think about that "charge song" the organ always plays a baseball games. The major third is the interval between the first two notes of that phrase. For the minor 3rd, I always think of that bratty thing kids sing "nah nah na nah nah" to taunt or whatever heheh. etc...

Didn't know about the "nah nah nah" thing, cool.

Originally Posted by Mark Wilson

I have perfect relitave pitch. I was born with it, played piano since I was 3, and have been playing flute since I was 7.
Now, i'm at Humber College for a program in Jazz bass.

My girlfriend is similarly talented in music, also a piano player. That's a great reason to really learn how to intonate before I try to sing something in her presence..

You said you can't hear Root-3rd. but, you can hear root-5th. My trick is to listen and build up a major triad. 1-3-5.

Example on the bass would be G-B-D. I don't know how well you know your notes, but it's...

G= 3rd fret- E string
B= 2nd Fret- A string
D=5th fret- A string.

Soon enough you'll be able to hear those intervals.
Another suggestion I have is to sit down at a piano, and play a C. Then, sing up a major scale to a specific interval (6th lets say)
if you have NO experience playing piano, PM me and i'll map out a basic keyboard for you.

intervals are incredibly important when it comes to hearing melodies, and key changes. After all, a melody is built upon specific intervals.

Any questions, feel free to PM and i'll help you out best I can

Thanks for the links and for the tips but.. I suppose I made myself look way more noob than I really am. I do know the notes, I kinda know how major/minor triads sound, I can instantly recognize I/IV/V blues progression (guess that comes from playing I/IV/V over and over). And I do have a synth, do some playing on it every once in a while. Even tried harmonizing some simple melodies in C (got confused with chord inversions though).

What puzzles me is that when I hear two notes sounding together, I can't really tell if it's REALLY in tune or not - the margin is (IMO) too wide. Octave/fifth are the easy ones but when it comes to other intervals.. I can sit for 5 minutes tuning and detuning a fourth and still be unsure. I once looked at the tuner and got scared by what I thought was in tune. But I suppose that should improve with time.

And that "sing up a major scale to a specific interval" thing doesn't always work. It often takes several attempts until I get the "yeah, I am singing this correctly" feeling. Singing major scale up is much easier than down, dunno why..

So I think Sean is right, I simply lack basic musical training. I even had music lessons up to like 8th grade but discarded them as being totally unimportant and the teacher discarded me as totally tone deaf - that way we didn't interfere with each other. Isn't that ironic?

[Sean Baumann]

Honestly, I have a hard time singing the major scale too so no worries. When I sit at the piano I can get it right after a few attempts, but all that shows is you need daily practice. I know I hear it in my head right, it's just getting my voice to do the right thing.

[Mark Wilson]

Originally Posted by kipsus

And that "sing up a major scale to a specific interval" thing doesn't always work. It often takes several attempts until I get the "yeah, I am singing this correctly" feeling. Singing major scale up is much easier than down, dunno why..

Then what you can do is sit down with your girlfriend. Have her sing with you.

You play a C, then sing a Major 3rd away, and hold it, and then get your girlfriend to sing it to hear the dissonance. Then, tune yourself.

[bumpytrot]

http://www.miles.be/

That link takes you to a free program that's supposed to help you develop relative pitch. What it does is play tones in various scales and you choose which note it is... you figure it out by singing down or up to the root. That might help. It takes more time for some people, especially if you're newer to music, but it sounds like you're in the right direction!

[ric1312]

Originally Posted by Sean Baumann

I seriously don't think tone deaf really exists, or if it does it is probably extermely rare. If it did, you wouldn't enjoy music at all as you wouldn't understand any melody. Heck, I bet you can sing happy birthday or your ABCs, that prooves it right there.

I think your case is more that you have not trained your ears in the proper way. Since you say you know the sound of the interval between root and 5, then you know you can learn them all.

My ear was absolutely terrible when I first started playing. It has improved, but I still have goals for myself to get better. Here is some advice as far as ear training:

1.) SING. If you are not attempting to sing what you play, then you will not improve. Work on this daily. Plan the root, sing the root, play the interval and sing the interval.

2.) Find an easily identifiable melody that uses the interval, this will help you remember it. For example, for the major 3rd, I think about that "charge song" the organ always plays a baseball games. The major third is the interval between the first two notes of that phrase. For the minor 3rd, I always think of that bratty thing kids sing "nah nah na nah nah" to taunt or whatever heheh. etc...

Yep, told by several ear specialists that there is no such thing as tone deaf. When you lose hearling cilia in the ear are broken off. Too loud of music does this, this is what the ringing is, broken or temporarily bent cilia in the ear. When you lose hearing you lose sensitivity but not gaps in the middle of the range. When you lose range you lose it from the top down.

My guess would be some people have maybe better ears to begin with and or a brain that is some how wired to more easily be able to pick out notes. Just like some people can do math in their head easily, but I often have to run for the calculator.

And a little tip on singing, make sure you have a microphone and a monitor, or at the very least cup your ear toward your mouth so you can hear your actual voice. Otherwise you hear your voice after it passes through your body and then gets to your ear. the sound is different than what is coming straight out of your mouth.

[Mark Wilson]

Thanks!
I'm gonna use it!

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by ric1312

And a little tip on singing, make sure you have a microphone and a monitor, or at the very least cup your ear toward your mouth so you can hear your actual voice. Otherwise you hear your voice after it passes through your body and then gets to your ear. the sound is different than what is coming straight out of your mouth.

Don't try to make tonal judgments like this though. You sound how you sound, and trying to sound different will just turn out badly. Focus on your technique and you'll naturally sound as good as you can.