Teaching rhythm

I'm wondering has anyone here got any useful tips for teaching rhythm to beginners, or better yet, does anyone know of a comprehensive system for doing this?

[dogofgod]

Metronome.

/thread.

[Fergie Fulton]

For complete beginners i like to internalize the main ones then embelish on them. Get them to clap out the clave in the rhythm not the beat, unless the clave is the beat.
So i start simple with 4/4 on the beat, before the beat, after the beat (basicly off beat or between the beat if you will). Then two step, waltz, and tango. Then from the Latin American the rumba and so on. Just find one example of each to start with so when you start to sub divide in to more complicated rhythms they have an internal feel where to look for the beat.

I find it is best to stay away from time sigs to start with and just work on the feels of them. There are great examples out there of these feels in lots of songs to help internalise them. Keep the theory of time sigs to a minimum for just now till the get down the feel. Then when the theory of time sigs is introduced later they have a grounding to relate to. Maybe get a rhythm machine or similar and use the patterns from that to relate the feels? Keep it fun is the key and the interest will be there.

[tZer]

I need some suggestions in this area. Here's my situation:

I have one student - only one - the 13 year old son of an old friend. He's broken through what I consider to be the first obstacle - he's found a reason to play bass. At first, it was just 'something to do, musically' - now he's hooked up with he cousin's band and has started experiencing why playing bass mean something to him.

What I've discovered is that he doesn't seem to have an 'internal' clock or sense of rhythm. My go to example of basic rhythm is walking. People walk at a consistent pace, left, right, left, right - and that is my biological 'metronome' - the concept of walking.

So I try to get him to conceptualize walking (I also use tapping the foot, clicking teeth, bobbing the head) any physical manifestation of an even pace that he can use to begin to subdivide the groove and focus on the one.

I have him stand while he's doing an exercise and use any of the aforementioned physical pacing mechanisms - tapping, bobbing, clicking, even walking in place. Once I get him 'moving' I have he start to play his part - and you guessed it... if he's 'walking', suddenly it looks like his having a seizure, if it's foot tapping, suddenly the foot has a mind of it's own - if it's head bobbing, well... Remember the Exorcist?

Does anyone have an effective method for teaching simple, basic, fundamental time? Please share... I need help!

OH, and I do clap for him and use a metronome occasionally - but what I'm trying to instill is an INTERNAL sense of time - not a dependency on someone or something else marking it out for him.

Thanks!

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by tZer

I need some suggestions in this area. Here's my situation:

I have one student - only one - the 13 year old son of an old friend. He's broken through what I consider to be the first obstacle - he's found a reason to play bass. At first, it was just 'something to do, musically' - now he's hooked up with he cousin's band and has started experiencing why playing bass mean something to him.

What I've discovered is that he doesn't seem to have an 'internal' clock or sense of rhythm. My go to example of basic rhythm is walking. People walk at a consistent pace, left, right, left, right - and that is my biological 'metronome' - the concept of walking.

So I try to get him to conceptualize walking (I also use tapping the foot, clicking teeth, bobbing the head) any physical manifestation of an even pace that he can use to begin to subdivide the groove and focus on the one.

I have him stand while he's doing an exercise and use any of the aforementioned physical pacing mechanisms - tapping, bobbing, clicking, even walking in place. Once I get him 'moving' I have he start to play his part - and you guessed it... if he's 'walking', suddenly it looks like his having a seizure, if it's foot tapping, suddenly the foot has a mind of it's own - if it's head bobbing, well... Remember the Exorcist?

Does anyone have an effective method for teaching simple, basic, fundamental time? Please share... I need help!

OH, and I do clap for him and use a metronome occasionally - but what I'm trying to instill is an INTERNAL sense of time - not a dependency on someone or something else marking it out for him.

Thanks!

Time and rythm are two different things. I'll check a student by having them clap to a tune. The time is almost always right. They may go in half notes or 8ths, but will usually feel a pulse in the music. I will then have the student clap with me.

Next I'll have them count and again they will usually instictively find one.

If the student is a bass player I will get rid of any other factors and have them play one note in time. If they are unable to do this, they have a coordination problem and should be playing out of time. Then I will have them count 1 2 3 4 while playing qurater notes on one note. No metronome, just doing this. This should get the time together. They should be able to see what a quarter note pulse looks like on the staff.

R5 bass is easy enough, and usually done in two. The student should be able to handle a short progression.

Have him tap his foot or clap to music 24/7. Many kids don't really listen any more, its in the background all the time. I've also found many kids cannot discern between instruments like my generation could. Just an observation, but we had more music classes then.

[BigOldHarry]

Easy - I taught my GF son rhythm at age 4. I explained what "The beat" is, and I'd play music. At first I told him just to count the beat... once he got that down, I'd ask him where the "One" is. Now, I can say "Sam, where's the three" and he'll listen and call it out correctly, every time. He's 8 now. He will end up a bassist or a drummer, no doubt.

[Fergie Fulton]

Seen this a few times before, and it is quiet funny to witness, but the serious side is to develop the sense of rhythm, then develop the beat within the rhythm.

Music has a rhythm and that rhythm has a beat. So look to swing, samba, rumba, calypso, etc to find rhythm that you can have him clap along to without stating the beat, but the rhythm.

This really needs to be in place before it can be translated to the instrument. What happens is because the brain is not sure what is supposed to happen it hesitates when unsure. That is the convulsions and stutters you see appear when it goes wrong. What happens with an instrument in the hands is the brain hesitates the hands, maybe both at once or just one, the brain still tries to make it work because it is unsure what is required.

Start with a simple rhythm get the feel and repeat it out in walking and clapping, a two dimensional task that is similar to listening and playing and there in is the task. It is the sorting out and ordering of two things that need to be developed as that is the basis of playing, hearing something and repeating it, or hearing something and following it.

This will develop in to more layered forms of the task such as reading music will watching a conductor, will playing, will listening to what's going on around you
You know the student so work out what skills he has and then find a way to order them and introduce the new ones needed.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by Billnc

Time and rythm are two different things. I'll check a student by having them clap to a tune. The time is almost always right. They may go in half notes or 8ths, but will usually feel a pulse in the music. I will then have the student clap with me.

Next I'll have them count and again they will usually instictively find one.

If the student is a bass player I will get rid of any other factors and have them play one note in time. If they are unable to do this, they have a coordination problem and should be playing out of time. Then I will have them count 1 2 3 4 while playing qurater notes on one note. No metronome, just doing this. This should get the time together. They should be able to see what a quarter note pulse looks like on the staff.

R5 bass is easy enough, and usually done in two. The student should be able to handle a short progression.

Have him tap his foot or clap to music 24/7. Many kids don't really listen any more, its in the background all the time. I've also found many kids cannot discern between instruments like my generation could. Just an observation, but we had more music classes then.

Thanks for the tips - and for the record, I know that time and rhythm are separate things

I am thinking about marching him around the house - literally like I did back in my marching band days - to a cadence - calling turns - about faces - obliques, etc... just to get him focused in on even pacing, logical subdivisions and the all-important ONE.

I can also see how referring to sheet music will help illustrate time and subdivisions (duh!!)... So I need to write up some basic rhythm patterns and have him follow along on the page as they're played.

If there are any other 'basics of time/groove' exercises you can think of, I am all ears.

Thanks again!

[tZer]

Originally Posted by BigOldHarry

Easy - I taught my GF son rhythm at age 4. I explained what "The beat" is, and I'd play music. At first I told him just to count the beat... once he got that down, I'd ask him where the "One" is. Now, I can say "Sam, where's the three" and he'll listen and call it out correctly, every time. He's 8 now. He will end up a bassist or a drummer, no doubt.

Great! Simple, direct, and makes a lot of sense. I'll add that to my list of lessons.

Thanks!!

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Seen this a few times before, and it is quiet funny to witness, but the serious side is to develop the sense of rhythm, then develop the beat within the rhythm.

Music has a rhythm and that rhythm has a beat. So look to swing, samba, rumba, calypso, etc to find rhythm that you can have him clap along to without stating the beat, but the rhythm.

This really needs to be in place before it can be translated to the instrument. What happens is because the brain is not sure what is supposed to happen it hesitates when unsure. That is the convulsions and stutters you see appear when it goes wrong. What happens with an instrument in the hands is the brain hesitates the hands, maybe both at once or just one, the brain still tries to make it work because it is unsure what is required.

Start with a simple rhythm get the feel and repeat it out in walking and clapping, a two dimensional task that is similar to listening and playing and there in is the task. It is the sorting out and ordering of two things that need to be developed as that is the basis of playing, hearing something and repeating it, or hearing something and following it.

This will develop in to more layered forms of the task such as reading music will watching a conductor, will playing, will listening to what's going on around you
You know the student so work out what skills he has and then find a way to order them and introduce the new ones needed.

Perfect. I am going to start crafting next week's segment on 'internalizing a sense of rhythm' tonight.

It's very helpful to break this stuff down into consumable components. I've been doing it since age 6 - piano, tap dancing, all sorts of 'rhythm-centric' education - so for me it feels like something that everyone is born with. The idea that people don't automatically 'feel' rhythm is completely foreign to me. I've underestimated with how hard it is to acquaint someone who doesn't have childhood lessons as a background with these things.

Thanks a lot for your insights!

[varunkapahi]

READING!
reading, tapping out syncopated sixteenths, eights, dotted notes,etc

[tZer]

Originally Posted by varunkapahi

READING!
reading, tapping out syncopated sixteenths, eights, dotted notes,etc

Agreed. That is a very solid way to literally illustrate the nature of time and rhythm as it relates to music.

Added to the lesson plan.

[m_bisson]

reading is the best way to understand it. ESPECIALLY once you get into triplets and odd meters.

[tZer]

Zombie Thread Resurrection - and this is LONG - but I have an experiment I want to try with my student and I'd like some feedback.

OK - Same student - a year and a half later... Update.

Aside from being six inches taller,

• His ear has developed well
• He knows his instrument pretty well
• He is reading pretty well - sight reading is a challenge, but he knows his notes and knows what to do with chord symbols and progressions
• He is not consistently using good hand position and fingering in his left hand (too much play, play, play - not enough work on the basics)
• He is using standard finger plucking (2 fingers, alternating) competently
• He is branching out into additional plucking and picking techniques - like thump & pluck, pick style, using fingers as simulated picks - all in small, where appropriate doses.

He has been playing with the same band for a couple years now - yes, he's 15 - been in the same band since just before he turned 12...

He's developing into a functional bass player - slowly, but surely. His interest is cooking like mad, so really it's more of an issue reigning him in and trying to force him to do the boring, repetitive slow work needed to solidify his technique.

That's my biggest woe right now. He and his dad, who I have known my entire life, suffer from having the most irregular and awkward sense of groove - call it white boy syndrome - and I am a little afraid it might be both genetic and part of their DNA...

I did an experiment last night with my student. I taught him some basic marching band stuff - listen as I clap the tempo - when I count you in, starting on your left foot, MARCH! Make sure each foot lands in time - left, right, left, right, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4... OK... March! off he went... Well, after a false start, a stagger a stumble and finally a step, that is... I reset him - focused him in - "You are going to start on your left foot - pick up your left foot for me - good... that's the one that's going to take that first step. 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, ready? Go...

He did better that time but it was very hard for him to do and as I watched him do it, I remembered vividly how his dad was just like that when we were in marching band.

His dad was a perfectly acceptable sax player - no show boat or soloist - always held a respectable chair in the section, made it into bands you had to audition for, mechanically and musically competent - but his sense of groove was trapezoidal - or rhomboid or - not even square or rectangular (robotic) - Awkward, but accurate - not groovy - and when it came to putting one foot in front of the other, the likelihood that he'd either get out of step by step three or trip was very high.

Like father, life son... doh!

I slowed my student down and finally got him to at least march to a count. When that settled in I started asking him to clap and march at the same time. Guess what - either the feet were on and the hands were off or vice-versa... I don't think I can even do that if I try. I had him just clap on the down-beat - and the minute he had to clap, his cadence broke... He'd correct - but you could tell it was a huge struggle to do what I thought should be almost instinctive. Clearly it's not for some people - and that trait seems to get passed down from one generation to the next.

My friend's older sister is a cellist playing with major symphonies, he has his own musical aptitude, his other sister was an accomplished pianist - clearly the ability to be musical is in their genes - and his sister could march well - so it also seems to be a male thing - using my friend and his son as lab rats.

But it's obvious that it's either one or the other - and I believe the physical sense of tempo, time and rhythm needs to be part of the autonomic system - in muscle memory - in order for any sort of true sense of groove to happen. While he can compensate with his coping mechanisms (which are basically relying on the drums and rhythm guitar to be solid enough for him to latch onto) - but that's got to change if he wants to take his playing beyond garage band 101 and B-level HS jazz band.

So I think I am going to take this marching band experiment to the next level and spend half of our 1 hour lesson on straight up body, meet rhythm via the most rudimentary means known to man - marching.

A few questions:
1) Do you agree that one should have an internal (bodily) sense of rhythm that doesn't demand a lot of thought in order to groove?

2) Are testing things like the ability to tap the foot in quarters and clap subdivisions or marching in time good ways to evaluate a person's ability to demonstrate that they are developing that bodily, natural rhythmic sense?

2a) If so, I assume it's worth spending time teaching those skills - marching, clapping, even simple dance steps or other body+rhythm things - can you recommend any other methods?

2b) If not, what other angles should I be looking from?

I am pretty narrowly focused on the idea that I need to get him to a point where he can literally walk and chew gum or I will be fighting an uphill battle trying to help him become a rhythmically sound player...

HELP! Please.

[HypersoulRocks]

The book Modern Reading Text in 4/4 by Louis Bellison....that and a metronome taught me to be a bass player.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by HypersoulRocks

The book Modern Reading Text in 4/4 by Louis Bellison....that and a metronome taught me to be a bass player.

I'll look into that.

Anything in particular that stands out that you can share?

[Infrasonik B.]

From a student's persective (one with little to no prior music theory experience) I found that the Konokol/Takadimi method for counting time/rhythm was much easier to internalize than anything else I had been taught.

It might not help your current situation (since after a few years of teaching it one way to this student, it seems a little redundant to completley change the method) but my teacher has started teaching this approach (instead of the 1-2-3-4) in the last year with great results for all of his students.

Here's a pretty in-depth look at the method, I'm sure you can find something simpler if interested.

http://www.sudburydrums.com/uploads/...imiarticle.pdf

Good Luck!

[JaamE]

I took some hand drum lessons with my youngest son (d'jembe) and found it to be very helpful to me rhythmwise. It was a lot more than just the 4/4 i was used to from playing R&R. It was really hard for me to do things in a different timing, esp when they'd start something in 8's and ask us to choose 6 beats out of that and just play...6 doesnt go into 8 in a way that i could easily make a pattern out of and it seriously warped my brain... but i learned. :-)

[GeoffT]

I don't understand the focus on marching and I disagree with it being genetic (but that is a whole 'nother thread). You get better at something by doing it repeatedly and eliminating the mistakes, period. If he believes he can not do it because he believes it's just not in his genes, I suspect that will impede his progress. If you think you can or can not do something, you are usually correct. Think of someone you know who is not good at math, I bet they think it is hard or that they just don't have what it takes to learn it, that is their biggest obstacle. I have a hard time believing that a 15 year old will ever practice the marching and clapping thing on his own time. It needs to be something he can do with bass.

I also think it needs to be very simple. Straight quarters or eighths with a metronome or drum loop to start, then start dropping notes and/or working with some of the types of rhythms mentioned above. You could try recording yourself playing some simple rhythms over a drum beat and have him practice along, maybe 5 minutes worth per week and try to convince him to spend a little time every day on it. The counting along in your head or out-loud gives you a solid foundation to build upon but it just has to be repeated enough times until the thinking and counting are eliminated from the process and it just happens. Not sure how you convince a 15 YO to spend a little time on it every day but I'll bet that it will be a hundred times easier to do than to get him marching and clapping every day.

[miltslackford]

I teach guitar and bass, and I have a way of teaching guitar that aims to give even the most un-musical types a good start and a solid sense of timing and rhythm.

What I do is I teach strumming, but in the instruction I am really particular that the movement comes from the elbow, not from the wrist (often I've found students with bad timing have a kind of 'scooping' circular action with their hand and wrist when they strum). In this way the hand moves down for on-beats and up for off-beats. I integrate this with the foot also very early on (first or second lesson) so the student is tapping their foot with the downstrokes of the hand.

The second stage is to give rhythms to practice where the down beats (a 1,2,3 or 4) are removed, and to let the student realise that the pendulum motion of the arm is preserved during the unplayed 'on' beat except the fingers don't touch the strings. I've found this helps people to physically measure out time and it helps beginners account for spaces (rests) in a natural way. I've found without this link between body and brain, students can know what a written rhythm means, but may be unable to measure out the gaps.

I've had good success with this method for guitar, but I haven't thought of a parallel method as yet for bass. Maybe the pick players you could do this with. I haven't heard of people doing this with the fingers - I'm not sure if it would work in the same way.

I recently had some drum lessons from a very experienced drum teacher and we were discussing this and he says that he uses a similar thing in that he uses right as 'on' and left as 'off'. So the student learns to instinctively play off beats with their left hand and on beats with their right.

I find this a really interesting area of teaching - how to teach people who really don't find it natural. Rhythm can often be overlooked (the 'either you got it or you ain't' idea). Good thread and good replies.

[GeoffT]

Originally Posted by miltslackford

I've had good success with this method for guitar, but I haven't thought of a parallel method as yet for bass. Maybe the pick players you could do this with. I haven't heard of people doing this with the fingers - I'm not sure if it would work in the same way.

I recently had some drum lessons from a very experienced drum teacher and we were discussing this and he says that he uses a similar thing in that he uses right as 'on' and left as 'off'. So the student learns to instinctively play off beats with their left hand and on beats with their right.

You can do the same thing with index/middle finger on the plucking hand or down/up pick strokes on a single string. One plays the down beats one plays the up beats. I found it helped quite a bit with the rhythms, especially when the two fingers sounded less equal than they do now. I just adapted it early on from the guitar style technique you described. I don't always do that in my playing now but when I slow down a tricky line that I'm having trouble with, I find it always goes a little smoother when I work it out in that manner.