technical question about specific song/chord progression

[tranceFusion]

Ok so I am trying to understand the song "Sweet Surrender" by Sarah Mclachlan (sp).

The chord progression to start the song is:

F#m D A E F#m D
F#m D A E F#m D A


So I come up w/ a basic run between line 1 and 2, on the last measure of the D chord changing into the F# that goes:

D E F# G#

The thing is, I am thinking.. I am on the D chord, I should be playing the 4th of the D chord but instead I am playing a note that isn't in the D major scale.. the 4th (G) just doesn't sound right there.

Is this because the song SHOULD be on the A (considering on the next line it is on A at that time..), so the G# is the 7th on the A major scale.. or what? I am confused..

Thanks for any explanation!

[Deacon_Blues]

To me it sounds like the song is in F# minor or A major. That A major scale gives you a G# instead of a G.

You could also see it as since you're on the D chord, which is a fourth above the tonic (A), you need to play the fourth mode, lydian, above the D maj chord to "stay on the right track" diatonically. That scale contains a sharp fourth (G#), but is otherwise the same as the D major scale. And surprise, surprise, the notes are exactly the same as in the A major scale...

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

The thing is, I am thinking.. I am on the D chord, I should be playing the 4th of the D chord but instead I am playing a note that isn't in the D major scale.. the 4th (G) just doesn't sound right there.

I'm not familiar with the tune, but just point one thing out. The 4th degree of a Major scale is an "Avoid" note. The 4th degree is what replaces the 3rd in a sus chord. It is a half-step above the 3rd and clashes. That is why many use Lydian as their default Major scale because it has the #4 and doesn't clash.

So on major chord avoid or use special handling with the 4th degree of the related major scale. If you want to use the 4th degree then use it on a weak beat or as a passing tone.

Now on a Minor chord/scale the 4th is a cool tone.

[mutedeity]

That's because the key is A major, not D major. D Lydian is the relative "mode", so when you play over D you use Lydian rather than major. That is why the G sounds "strange"

Of course, under certain circumstances you could change the "key" for that chord, but this is probably not the case in a Sarah Mclaughlan song.

[Edit] Actually the "key" is more likely to be F# minor, depending on how you want to look at it, but for the sake of explaining why it is not D major I will stick to my first explanation.

Also I would agree in part with what DocBop is saying about the 4th. It should be used mostly as a "passing" note. That means not placed on any strong beats in the chord as it will "clash" quite strongly with the chord tones when played on stronger beats. I wouldn't at this stage really advise using A Lydian over the piece unless you fully understand how doing so will affect the context of what you are playing, on the other hand.

[tranceFusion]

The song ends w/ an A so I did believe it to be in A major. Is saying A major or F# minor just semantics or is there some fucntional difference?

Ok, I didn't realize that you had to play the scale in the actual mode depending on where it appeared in the key.. I just thought if it was a D major, you played a D major.

So the 4th is always an avoid note on a major scale? Is this why it isn't in the pentatonic scale? Does this mean the 7th is also an avoid note (unless its a 7th chord)?

I feel like there is some piece I am missing. Do you pick up these "rules" (like avoiding the 4th) just from experience, or can I get them all in a nice list somewhere?

I have been playing for a while and kind of fell into the trap of working on technique, learning songs, etc, and never learned my theory. I am recently focusing on trying to understand what I am playing and some days it is an absolutely blessing, on others (like today) it is rather frustrating.

Thanks for the help guys!

[edit] for the record, I am not a regular listener of sarah mclachlan songs

[tranceFusion]

also, considering the 4th degree of the major scale is to be avoided, is the 4th degree of the key also generally to be avoided? (despite its use in this particular song)

[ryco]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

The song ends w/ an A so I did believe it to be in A major. Is saying A major or F# minor just semantics or is there some functional difference?

F# minor is the relative minor to A Maj, meaning it has the same accidentals in it's key signature. Another way to look at this is F# minor is the mode built on the 6th degree of A Maj = they are highly "related" (F# natural minor is built on the 6th degree of the Major scale {Major is the Ionian mode, Natural minor is the Aeolian mode}). The use of ending a minor key song on it's relative Major is common "device"

Ok, I didn't realize that you had to play the scale in the actual mode depending on where it appeared in the key.. I just thought if it was a D major, you played a D major.

You don't always, that's where listening comes in. In your situation your ears were telling you something wasn't sounding right, which is what brought you here to ask. Depends a lot on the style of music. Rock and country tend to simplify the "rules", but you'll find examples of this there too.

So the 4th is always an avoid note on a major scale? Is this why it isn't in the pentatonic scale? Does this mean the 7th is also an avoid note (unless its a 7th chord)?

Yes, that is why the 4th isn't in the Major pentatonic scale, it is included in the minor pentatonic scale. The 7th isn't included in the Major pentatonic because it's harsher sounding note, the 6th is used instead because it doesn't clash with the tonic.

I feel like there is some piece I am missing. Do you pick up these "rules" (like avoiding the 4th) just from experience, or can I get them all in a nice list somewhere?

You may want to entertain the idea of taking a theory class at a local community college.
A lot of music studied/analyzed is old church music and classical, but the basic/fundamental rules apply.
It's fun to study in a classroom because of the discussion factor - a lot of ppl asking questions, questions or ideas you yourself might not have thought to ask.

Or if you can find a guitar/keyboard/bass instructor who is knowledgeable in modern theory and harmony to show you some of the rules/guidelines in harmony.

Or buy a theory book like the "Jazz Theory Book" by Levine and hack your way through that. It's more fun to learn with others though!

Or you can use the "search" button in this forum, or the DB theory forum over on the dark side. Careful -- they bite!

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

also, considering the 4th degree of the major scale is to be avoided, is the 4th degree of the key also generally to be avoided? (despite its use in this particular song)

I'm not sure what you're asking. Yes, the fourth degree of the key is used. Without it you couldn't play the blues. The IV is a very common chord. Just watch out for the 4th degree of the IV chord, it is usually sharped (scale built on the 4th degree Major mode is called Lydian = Major scale with a raised/sharp 4th) as discussed earlier in this thread.

[mutedeity]

Originally Posted by ryco

Yes, that is why the 4th isn't in the Major pentatonic scale, it is included in the minor pentatonic scale. The 7th isn't included in the Major pentatonic because it's harsher sounding note, the 6th is used instead because it doesn't clash with the tonic.

Actually, I believe it's more that the 4th and 7th are omitted in the major pentatonic because they are the notes that are uncommon to Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian. The other five notes are common. This means that if you play a major pentatonic over a major chord the notes will conform to the relative mode.

The same is true of the minor pentatonic, only the 2nd and 6th are omitted since they are the tones not common to Aeolian, Phrygian and Dorian.

[tranceFusion]

F# minor is the relative minor to A Maj, meaning it has the same accidentals in it's key signature. Another way to look at this is F# minor is the mode built on the 6th degree of A Maj = they are highly "related" (F# natural minor is built on the 6th degree of the Major scale {Major is the Ionian mode, Natural minor is the Aeolian mode}). The use of ending a minor key song on it's relative Major is common "device"

So what is the actual difference between F#minor and A Major?

You may want to entertain the idea of taking a theory class at a local community college.
A lot of music studied/analyzed is old church music and classical, but the basic/fundamental rules apply.
It's fun to study in a classroom because of the discussion factor - a lot of ppl asking questions, questions or ideas you yourself might have thought to ask.

Or if you can find a guitar/keyboard/bass instructor who is knowledgeable in modern theory and harmony to show you some of the rules/guidelines in harmony.

Or buy a theory book like the "Jazz Theory Book" by Levine and hack your way through that. It's more fun to learn with others though!

Or you can use the "search" button in this forum, or the DB theory forum over on the dark side. Careful -- they bite!

I have been going to a private instructor for maybe 6 weeks or so, and he seems to be very good. Maybe this is weird (or wrong), but I feel like at the price I am paying, I don't like to get wrapped up discussing textbook stuff for a huge chunk of the lesson, so I have been trying to get those kinds of answers resolved throughout the week. The community college theory class is a terrific idea though, so I am going to try and do that.

Actually, I believe it's more that the 4th and 7th or omitted in the major pentatonic because they are the notes that are uncommon to Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian. The other five notes are common. This means that if you play a major pentatonic over a major chord the notes will conform to the relative mode.

The same is true of the minor pentatonic, only the 2nd and 6th are omitted since they are the tones not common to Aeolian, Phrygian and Dorian.

Thank you!! I now understand the point of the pentatonic scale!

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

also, considering the 4th degree of the major scale is to be avoided, is the 4th degree of the key also generally to be avoided? (despite its use in this particular song)

It's your choice you can avoid it, or watch how you use it. You can play any note if you handle it right.

[HaVIC5]

Yes, that is why the 4th isn't in the Major pentatonic scale, it is included in the minor pentatonic scale. The 7th isn't included in the Major pentatonic because it's harsher sounding note, the 6th is used instead because it doesn't clash with the
tonic.

Actually, I believe it's more that the 4th and 7th or omitted in the major pentatonic because they are the notes that are uncommon to Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian. The other five notes are common. This means that if you play a major pentatonic over a major chord the notes will conform to the relative mode.

Some misinformation here. Mutedeity's explanation is closest though. The development of the modern minor/major pentatonic scales (they're related modes of each other) came about because they are examples of anhemitonic pentatonics (say what?), or pentatonic scales that have no half-steps and therefore have the unique melodic quality of having no notes which have a strong resolution pattern (like the leading tone). This makes them sound less tonal and more ambiguous, like mutedeity explained.

So what is the actual difference between F#minor and A Major?

Context. Technically, if you are in tonal F# minor you'll have some accidentals, like an E# to create a leading tone, but that's another story. F# minor sounds minor, A major sounds major. Usually the chord that begins the phrase will dictate that because of its strong harmonic rhythm, so thats why I tend to hear this chord progression more minorish. The melody also has a lot to do with it. It's not an exact science.

also, considering the 4th degree of the major scale is to be avoided, is the 4th degree of the key also generally to be avoided? (despite its use in this particular song)

I hate when people say the 4th degree should be avoided - it's incredibly misleading. Basically, if you emphasize the fourth degree up from the CHORD (not the overall key or chord progression), it creates a very ugly minor 2nd/9th dissonance with the major third of the chord. This is just if its emphasized, however, if you're doing it as part of linear passages thats otherwise unemphasized, it works fine - it confirms the key you're in and doesn't sound "bad" The fourth degree of the key SHOULD NOT BE AVOIDED, it is in fact essential to include in subdominant and dominant chords.

The reason why the natural fourth sounded weird on the D is because G is not in the key that you're in - not because having a natural fourth is bad. Play that same sort of figure over the A chord - A B C# D. Does that D sound off? It shouldn't.

[tranceFusion]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

The reason why the natural fourth sounded weird on the D is because G is not in the key that you're in - not because having a natural fourth is bad. Play that same sort of figure over the A chord - A B C# D. Does that D sound off? It shouldn't.

So what you are saying is that because in the Key of A major, since the G is sharped, it will never appear in any of the scales in the Key of A played in their proper modes, correct?

[ryco]

Actually, I believe it's more that the 4th and 7th or omitted in the major pentatonic because they are the notes that are uncommon to Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian. The other five notes are common. This means that if you play a major pentatonic over a major chord the notes will conform to the relative mode.
The same is true of the minor pentatonic, only the 2nd and 6th are omitted since they are the tones not common to Aeolian, Phrygian and Dorian.

Some misinformation here. Mutedeity's explanation is closest though. The development of the modern minor/major pentatonic scales (they're related modes of each other) came about because they are examples of anhemitonic pentatonics (say what?), or pentatonic scales that have no half-steps and therefore have the unique melodic quality of having no notes which have a strong resolution pattern (like the leading tone). This makes them sound less tonal and more ambiguous, like mutedeity explained.
I hate when people say the 4th degree should be avoided - it's incredibly misleading... if you're doing it as part of linear passages thats otherwise unemphasized, it works fine - it confirms the key you're in and doesn't sound "bad" The fourth degree of the key SHOULD NOT BE AVOIDED, it is in fact essential to include in subdominant and dominant chords.
The reason why the natural fourth sounded weird on the D is because G is not in the key that you're in - not because having a natural fourth is bad. Play that same sort of figure over the A chord - A B C# D. Does that D sound off? It shouldn't.

Thank you for these explanations. They make absolute sense.

I feel like there is some piece I am missing. Do you pick up these "rules" (like avoiding the 4th) just from experience, or can I get them all in a nice list somewhere?

You pick up these "rules" both from experience and from having discussions with ppl who know a lot more about theory than you do.
It's kind of parallel to improving actual playing. I learn the most when I'm the least experienced guy on the bandstand.
It's all just knowledge that gets passed on.

Thank you!! I now understand the point of the pentatonic scale!

Me too! Learn stuff all the time! Thanks again!

I have been going to a private instructor for maybe 6 weeks or so, and he seems to be very good. Maybe this is weird (or wrong), but I feel like at the price I am paying, I don't like to get wrapped up discussing textbook stuff for a huge chunk of the lesson, so I have been trying to get those kinds of answers resolved throughout the week. The community college theory class is a terrific idea though, so I am going to try and do that

I'd offer that having your instructor explain a little bit of theory in your lesson would be a good thing. It doesn't have to be a big chunk of time -- just have him show you a little something new every lesson. Little chunks are good because it gives you time to digest the info and gives you a little something to play around with every week. He'd probably enjoy sharing the info. You have a lifetime to learn this stuff -- no hurry,
Learning the mechanics of music is every bit as important as learning patterns and hand shapes. You want to label what you hear so you can describe and understand it in your mind. Then you can use it later in other situations and applications; like soloing for example.

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

So what is the actual difference between F#minor and A Major?

The note you start on in the pattern of WWHWWWH. WWHWWWH = Major, Ionian; WWHWWWH = Natural minor, Aeolian.
The notes & accidentals are the same for each in F# nat min and A Maj [F#, C#, G#]
Incidentally, the accidentals also have a sequence in which they appear.

[tranceFusion]

I'd offer that having your instructor explain a little bit of theory in your lesson would be a good thing. It doesn't have to be a big chunk of time -- just have him show you a little something new every lesson. Little chunks are good because it gives you time to digest the info and gives you a little something to play around with every week. He'd probably enjoy sharing the info. You have a lifetime to learn this stuff -- no hurry,
Learning the mechanics of music is every bit as important as learning patterns and hand shapes. You want to label what you hear so you can describe and understand it in your mind. Then you can use it later in other situations and applications; like soloing for example.

We definitely spend time on theory, but I usually come up with alot of questions throughout the week and for the first couple of weeks neither of us was touching an instrument so I kind of felt like I was squandering away the lesson.

I looked into the local community college and unfortunately the cost of taking their Music Theory I class is just about equal in cost to doubling my lesson time, which seems like it might be a better option.

Has anybody seen any online courses that might be worthwhile?

[JehuJava]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

I have been going to a private instructor for maybe 6 weeks or so, and he seems to be very good. Maybe this is weird (or wrong), but I feel like at the price I am paying, I don't like to get wrapped up discussing textbook stuff for a huge chunk of the lesson, so I have been trying to get those kinds of answers resolved throughout the week. The community college theory class is a terrific idea though, so I am going to try and do that.

Actually, this is the best time TO get into text book discussions. I find the best lessons have less actual playing and more discussion on concepts. Your off time is for practicing what you learned in the lesson.

just my opinion.

[JehuJava]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

We definitely spend time on theory, but I usually come up with alot of questions throughout the week and for the first couple of weeks neither of us was touching an instrument so I kind of felt like I was squandering away the lesson.

I looked into the local community college and unfortunately the cost of taking their Music Theory I class is just about equal in cost to doubling my lesson time, which seems like it might be a better option.

Has anybody seen any online courses that might be worthwhile?

Take 'em both.