Theory from Carol Kaye

[frango]

Stumbled across this about 4-5months ago from carol kaye, and have being applying to my practising and can honestly say its made me improve no end moving away from scale practice. Just thought id throw it in here whether people agree or not! -

'I think that too much emphasis is placed on scales and hardly none place on getting chordal tones together. I decry the ignorant way they teach scales as "the only way", as they have not the facility to teach chordal tones, nor the teaching experience to do that. Even fine string bass teachers teach chordal tones, but hardly enough elec. bass teachers. I never teach scales until a couple years later on in the lessons. They should get their chordal tones together first, not the piano way of learning "scales first" on the elec. bass which plays according to "chords", not solo work, to back up a band, or even to play some blues lines for immediate jamming. You're correct in the sense that you do learn it all, but there is literally almost nothing out there about chordal tones and the reason being is ignorance. Have had so many students who can play a million scales and cannot play with a band, as they don't know what to play and surely cannot solo. This has brought this lack of chordal tone approach way of teaching to my attention in the later years. They need more pattern work for the rock-funk too, as very few have the multitude of ideas you need to create good funky patterns (speaking of notes here, not slapping which isn't done in LA much anymore, it's sort of passe here). In just a few lessons, one can get their chordal approaches together to function very well in bands, and that is the ideal. As I get them in either funk (notes) or jazz soloing, I do give them the necessary two scales (only) that they need.
The arpeggios, chordal tones, are where it's at, also the stacked triads. Modes are very limited, they use the ii6 chord exclusively and don't flow at all like the chordal scale notes, and audiences are now so tired of hearing that limited self-serving musician stuff, it's a good way to close a business up I think. Good jazz is from the subs, the patterns, the pivot b5 lines, so many creative chordal sub things, plus the flow of the communications, the silences, the statements/answers (some call this "call and response") it's an art form, not a show-off of fast licks, but a way of communicating with each other and the audience.

Bird took the classical studies and started playing the jazz around the chordal notes and mathematical substitutions from the altered chords: A7-9 has the same notes as Bbo, things like that. Blues and rock etc. have a slightly different theory setup, blues licks which are derived from the minor chord (Cm aka as Eb7 or Ebm) which is really is the C7#9 chord with passing tones, this is not jazz subs at all, nor the stacked triads of Jazz (i.e. G7 is stacked in triad form: G Bm-5 Dm F Am C Em etc., thus you use the Dm7 for G7, you use the Fmaj7 for G7 etc.) and all the mathematical genius that goes with that. Bird and others like Horace Silver, Hampton Hawes, other innovators like that would be in the class of Albert Einstein (or really Einstein's wife who did so much for Albert) if they had have been scientists, it's mathematics in jazz, in 2's and 3's, not hard if you know your chordal tones, but takes awhile. '

[MalcolmAmos]

I agree with what Carol Kaye has to say. When I play scales I get the fish eye from the guys. Country is roots, fifths and chromatic runs, and since Country is the style I've decided to play Carol's methods fit right in with what I'm doing.

[dogbluedrummer]

What's a good resource to learn about chord tones and how to apply them?

[fearceol]

Originally Posted by dogbluedrummer

What's a good resource to learn about chord tones and how to apply them?

Here is a link from a fellow TB'er :



http://scottsbasslessons.com/video-t...ice-arpeggios/

[MalcolmAmos]

http://www.smithfowler.org/music/Chord_Formulas.htm

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showth...67#post9372867

And I'll check back later, got an appointment I have to go to.

OK I'm back. How to use chord tones. Somewhere between just roots (R-R-R-R) and complete chord tones (R-b3-5-b7) lies a pretty good bass line. Keep that thought....

Every basic chord is going to have a Root, a 5 and an 8. Those three notes will be generic to every basic chord, now the 5 may be a b5 if you have a diminished chord. How often does that happen? Not a lot in pop, rock and country so..... if you have some generic bass lines in muscle memory that just use those three notes you could use one bass line riff for the entire song. That in itself is not a piece of cake, hitting all the chord changes and keeping up with the music is going to take some practice. Lets see........
R-R-R-R
R-5-R-5
R-R-5-5
R-5-8-5
8-8-5-R -- any combination of those three notes could be your bass line. Now take one of those and use it with this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XehGt...eature=related.

This may be a little easier; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwMYW...eature=related

Now use the next one.
Then use one of the others.
Then add a 7th, remember the 7 can be a natural 7 or a b7. Cmaj7 = 7, C7 = b7, Cm7= b7. (R-5-b7-5)
Then add the 3's remember a major chord will have a natural 3 and a minor chord will have a b3. (R-3-5-3) or (R-b3-5-b7)
6's are neutral, throw in some 6's next. (R-R-3-3-5-5-6-5) or (R-3-6-8)
2's and 4's are great passing notes, just don't linger on them or stop on them. (R-2-3-5) or (R-3-4-5)

That's chord tones in a nutshell. Go play chord tones over a chord progression play-a-long. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4x0u...eature=related That F#m75b, not a step for a stepper, OK it's F# and it has a flatted 5 and a b3 and a b7 pick a couple of those notes and make a bass line from that. Then the Em and Eb7 in the same measure. You've got four beats in the measure and two chords to spread the four beats over -- so all each can have is two notes each, you decide which two notes to use. How about R-b3 then R-3.

Get some generic chord tones into muscle memory. When the generics are comfortable then throw in the specific notes, i.e. the 3 and b3, then the 7 and b7. Then help yourself to the neutral and passing notes, 2, 4 and 6 just don't linger on them or stop on them. Break out your fake chord sheet music and...........

Have fun.

[fearceol]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

http://www.smithfowler.org/music/Chord_Formulas.htm

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showth...67#post9372867

That link is OK Malcolm, but it implies that people must memorise all that information. Personally my eyes glaze over just looking at it. It does not show how to practice chord tones, like the link I provided.

[lowfreqgeek]

Scales and modes are the foundation on which all chords are built. They contain all the chord tones and establish the exact relationship of each chord tone to the tonic and to the others within the chord.

The problem isn't with the scales/modes themselves, but with the inability of so many teachers and students to apply them effectively. Musically speaking, the chord tones are MUCH more useful than scales; however, a basic understanding of scales is essential to understand how chords work. Too many teachers put so much emphasis on the scales that the end sight is lost, and students, who don't know better, spend far too long trying to play every mode of every scale in every key and every fingering for no good reason.

Both approaches have their place and a *good* teacher knows when and where to emphasize the appropriate concept for the student's best development. And if you're self-taught, you'll have to find that balance.

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by dogbluedrummer

What's a good resource to learn about chord tones and how to apply them?

imo the best way is to sit down and work them out.....start off with the major triads and add the sevenths,ninths,dim7,aug,etc ....say each note out loud as you play it .....what i did was practice them up and down and across the neck......there is 6 months to a years work just learning them,depending on how much time you spend,and how fast you learn...... friedlands walking series books are good once you know your way around the fretboard

[JTE]

Learn basic harming harmony, antmd and how to harmonize the scale. Search the TB theory forum for "harmony" and "chords". Posts by Mambo4 and Malcom Amos ( to cite only two of a plethora of excellent teachers) will lead you to good resources.

John

Wow, that was ugly... I need to quit typing from the phone

[fearceol]

Originally Posted by JTE

Posts by Mambo4 and Malcom Amos ( to cite only two of a plethora of excellent teachers) will lead you to good resources.

...not to mention JTE !!

[JTE]

BTW, to really get the most out of Carol Kaye's discussion of chord tones, understanding the harmonized scale is critical. It's not enough to just "know" that the I and IV are major 7, the ii, ii, and vi are minor 7, the V is dominant 7 and the vii is minor 7 b5, but to fully understand WHY they are those specific chords.

It's from this, which as often as I've gone through it, I keep finding folks who've never looked at it this way....


Start with the major scale and write it out (I'm serious- get a piece of paper and do this for yourself, and do it in all 12 keys! because otherwise it's just a bunch of memory work that won't get you anywhere)....
C D E F G A B C

... then on top of that write it out again, starting on the third. You should get this when you're done...
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Note what the intervals are in those stacks- you've got a major third from C to E, a minor third with the D - F and E - G stack, a major third again with F - A and G - B, and minor thirds with the A - C, and B - D. That's important and if you don't understand this part, don't go any further 'til you can get it right in all 12 keys.

The repeat it again, with the third of THAT one, always staying in the key!!! This gives you seven triads as follows....
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Analyze them with your knowledge of basic harmony (and if you can't figure out what these triads are, you need to learn basic harmony before you figure out another Muse lick). You need to know why the first, fourth, and fifth stacks are major triads, why the second, third, and sixth are minor, and why the seventh is a diminished triad.

Now, real world harmony goes beyond the triad, and something very cool happens when you add the next third to make them all 7th chords. The fifth chord of the scale becomes a unique chord with a very strong pull to the first chord. So, take your three-note stacks and on top add another third to get...
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Again analyze them to see WHY it's in order a CMaj7, Dmin7, Emin7, FMaj7, G7, Amin7, and Bmin7 b5 (NOT a B diminished!!!, it's a half-diminished!). But the WHY is important.

THEN you'll understand what Carol's talking about when she talks of the "chordal scale", and you'll see why we talk about "two five one" progressions, and how the V7 chord leads to the I chord, and etc. etc.

John

[Schlyder]

^ This...
And then you take this information and apply it to playing all the arpeggios in all inversions and extended range(multi octave) and play it around the circle of 4ths... then adding rythmic variations and other tools and devises running chord changes. Like playing all the arpeggios(chord tones) of a harmonized scale, through the circle of 4ths, utilizing all inversions, all in one position.
There is a ton of study material in the info in the above post.

[MaHei]

Once you have your chord tones sorted out, add approach notes and voilà: a career in jazz.

[HeadyVan Halen]

I'd have to agree with her...Gospel and really Southern Gospel, is great at this. Coming into it completely blind (musically) I was baffled at first. Scales, theory, etc. go totally out the window. Mainly because the musicians (the ones I played with) knew zero of it..absolutley nothing. Not even the notes on the neck of the guitar. But they could play they're tail off and this is the reason.
It's all about the SOUND and not the NOTE.

It is good to know your theory, but it's better to be able to play if you ask me.

[redstrand]

A good music teacher. My teacher has been teaching me chord tones from the git go. In 6 months my understanding of what I'm listening to and where I need to be in song has exploded. He hasn't taught me a song yet...he has taught me to play music.

Originally Posted by dogbluedrummer

What's a good resource to learn about chord tones and how to apply them?

[unclejane]

Before I make my comments, keep in mind I'm a bass player, not a musician.

But seems to me, this approach is kind of intuitive. The way I've always approached coming up with a bass part is I associate the sound of a chord with basically a pattern on my fingerboard. That pattern has the notes in it that sound good with that chord - it so happens that that pattern is a mode, but I never thought of it that way.

My deficit, of course, is I don't know the names of the things - i.e. someone says this chord is a so-and-so and I know that the associated scale is such-and-such a mode. I can't currently do that.

But generally in a jam I listen to what the chordal structure is from the polyphonic instruments like the guitar, keyboard, etc., and conceptualize the pattern on my fingerboard with the notes in it that go with that. I.e. the root first and then the rest in that pattern. Then it's a matter of taste or art on what notes I choose to play there and the style etc.

I don't know if that's the informal rendering of what Carol Kaye is talking about formally, but that seems to have always been the only way I've been able to come up with musical-sounding bass lines in a jam or etc.

I've never found much use for simply learning scales, modes and patterns simply by themselves (unless the bass is the only instrument playing and even then...). To me it's always been the association of a fingering pattern with a chord or melody, etc...

Do I have that right?

LS

[MalcolmAmos]

Yes, you rely on your ear to tell you what is needed, I rely up my theory to tell me what is needed and then adjust to what my ear is telling me is needed for the groove.

We both get to the same place just take different routs.

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by HeadyVan Halen

It is good to know your theory, but it's better to be able to play if you ask me.

theory vs groove
theory vs feel
theory vs playing by ear
"bass player" vs " musician"

I so despise this false choice implication that seems to creep in to every other theory discussion.
It's not as if there is a balance with learning theory on one end and playing well on the other.
Nobody has ever hurt their playing by learning some theory.
Nobody who has learned theory has ever claimed it's 100% necessary to play well. (but it can help)
Please avoid misleading any beginners into thinking that it's some choice they must make.

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by mambo4

theory vs groove
theory vs feel
theory vs playing by ear
"bass player" vs " musician"

I so despise this false choice implication that seems to creep in to every other theory discussion.
It's not as if there is a balance with learning theory on one end and playing well on the other.
Nobody has ever hurt their playing by learning some theory.
Nobody who has learned theory has ever claimed it's 100% necessary to play well. (but it can help)
Please avoid misleading any beginners into thinking that it's some choice they must make.

+1 The contentions do defeat the objective, theory will introduce you to more choice, more choice is a good thing last time I heard, I might be wrong though? Each to their own, but information, is definitely power imo.

[Raymeous]

Technique verses feel is one of those things that bugs me as well. You need a bit of both folks.

Unfortunately I have seen educated musicians write songs based more on theory than what their ear should be telling them. I have a friend of mine who is a very talented opera singer but she is also into the Celtic Folk style of music as well. I tried writing a song with her at one point and was stumped when she asked "how did you come up with that chord next? It should be this...". I sat there confused because listening to the melody and feel of the piece it sort of dictated a certain chord progression. She was trying to figure it out mathmatically with some formula she learned during her masters program. My response? "It just sounded right".

On the flip side of that I have a drummer (imagine that) friend of mine who's total music theory is "I just go by feel man". The funny part is he has problems trying to figure out why he has trouble playing Tool's grooves. Simple really. It's not in 4/4. That's why it's not working for you and that your fills don't "fit".

So in summary I don't think one view point is any more or less correct than the other and there is something to be gained by using ALL of it. Sorry for the semi hijack, but it fits in an odd way.