Theory confusion... Modes change with chords within a key???

[NCD]

I answered my own question as someone else was giving a different explanation of the same thing. I'll leave this here in case anyone else can use this in the future to clarify their own confusion about this.

I was checking out a vid from Scott Devine and I love the approach. He was teaching a simple bit about II-V-I arpeggios in the key of C Maj.

I understood the main points just fine and I see how it opens thing up, which is the point of his lesson. But he made a comment that had my head spinning in confusion.

He mentioned that when playing II-V-I within the key of C Maj one of the chords was in the Dorian mode while another was in a different mode, I think it was Midloxian but I could be mistaken on that detail.

My eyeballs fell out and my head hit the desk. Huh? I thought that the mode and scale made up the key. It was my understanding that the chords were then built upon the first, third, fifth etc. within the notes defined by the mode and the scale that the key was using.

IE: There are 5 notes in a Pentatonic scale, 7 notes in Ionian and Midloxian scales... right?

But if that's true, how could two chords within the same key be in different modes?

It's enough to give a noob to theory a facial tick.

[Will Kelly]

Its just a name to make it easier to classify scales and chords. They are all part of the same major scale.

In C Major, the ii is D Dorian. The V is G mixolydian. If you notice, they all contain the same notes, but start on different scale degrees.

C Major- I - CDEFGABC
D Dorian-ii- DEFGABCD
G Mixo-V-GABCDEFG

[JoZac21]

Hopefully I can explain this in a way that won't leave you more confused lol...

If you're in the key of Cmaj, II-, V, I = D-, G, C

when you're playing the D- chord, you're in the over all key of Cmaj, but the scale you're building your chord off of starts and ends on D... when you play a Cmaj scale starting and ending on D, it's called a D Dorian scale. The same goes for your Gmaj (or G7) chord... you're playing a C major scale, but you're starting and ending on G, making the scale G mixolydian.

I hope this answers your question in a way that's easily understandable.

[Febs]

If you're in the key of C, a ii7-V7-I would be:

Dm7 - G7 - C

The mode associated with each of these chords is:

Dm7 = D Dorian = D E F G A B C
G7 = G Mixolydian = G A B C D E F
C = C Ionian = C D E F G A B

If you were soloing over that ii7-V7-I progression, you could think in terms of the mode associated with each of those chords, but since all of these modes use the same collection of pitches, I find it easier to think of the progression as simply being in C and using a C Major scale, focusing on the chord tones associated with each chord.

[Bob DiGiacomo]

I think you are a bit confused on where the modes come from. I just wrote a series of posts explaining where they come from on my website. Check out

http://bobdigiacomo.com/2011/03/14/m...corner-part-i/

Hope this helps you out. I haven't had time yet, but the next section will talk about chords and their relationship to the modes.

[NCD]

Thanks to all... I think this is one of those things than can be explained in a hundred ways to say the same thing.

I do understand where modes came from, and that's how I sussed it out myself. Thanks!

Okay, here is how I came to the answer:

C Maj is:

C-D-E-F-G-A-B
W-W-h-W-W-W-h

That's if your ROOT is C. But when you play a D chord, your ROOT is D, not C. However, you have to stay within the same scale as defined by the key. So you get:

D-E-F-G-A-B-C

But that's not:
W-W-h-W-W-W-h... it's actually:
W-H-W-W-W-h-W.

And that, by definition, is a different mode than the original key.

As you change chords, your starting point within they key changes but the underlying scale of the key never changes. This means that when looked at from the starting point of the chord, the mix of whole and half steps changes each time.

Okay... now this HAS helped me understand something.

This would mean that the scale of CMaj and the scale of D in Dorian mode are the same exact notes... you just start on D instead of C.

Yes?

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by NCD

Sorry if this has been covered but it's one of those things where you dig through thousands of search results all telling you the same basic theory of scales and modes, but they never answer the question at hand. I was checking out a vid from Scott Devine and I love the approach. He was teaching a simple bit about II-V-I arpeggios in the key of C Maj.

I understood the main points just fine and I see how it opens thing up, which is the point of his lesson. But he made a comment that had my head spinning in confusion. He mentioned that when playing II-V-I within the key of C Maj one of the chords was in the Dorian mode while another was in the Midloxian mode.

My eyeballs fell out and my head hit the desk. Huh? I thought that the mode and scale made up the key. It was my understanding that the chords were then built upon the first, third, fifth etc. within the notes defined by the mode and the scale that the key was using.

Yes you thought correctly.

IE: There are 5 notes in a Pentatonic scale, 7 notes in Ionian and Midloxian scales... right?

Right but that does not really have anything to do with it.

But if that's true, how could two chords within the same key be in different modes?It's enough to give a noob to theory a facial tick.

Modes of the major scale - or each scale will have seven moods. Is the way I understand it. Now there are two methods of making modes. One is called relative modes and here the notes stay the same and you walk the key, i.e.
If C is the major scale Ionian would have these notes:
C D E F G A B and Dorian would have....
.. D E F G A B C and Phrygian would have ...
......E F G A B C D, etc. etc. and Lydian would have...
.........F G A B C D E and Mixolydian would have ...
............G A B C D E F so.....

With that ii, V, I progression that person is saying over the ii chord play the Dorian mode, over the V chord play the Mixolydian mode and over the I chord play the Ionian mode. People will be telling you this all the time - WRONG THING TO DO! Why? Remember modes are moods of the major scale. In that one progression you've got Dorian over the ii chord which gives an attractive minor jazz mood, then Mixolydian over the V chord which gives a major Latin or Blues mood and then the Ionian mode would give an up beat attractive major mood. I doubt your song having three moods. That old dog does not hunt.
That is the relative mode method which is easy to teach, however, is very hard to actually use in a song, number one reason it is hard to use - if you change the mode over each chord change you have a jumble of moods going on. Pick a mood you want and then use the mode that produces that mood. Now how to do that will take several screens, and I bet you already know how.

Modes are for the lead guitar people, and - the bass when we play melodic solos. Are you getting lead breaks?

I don't use modes in my bass playing - so they do not come into my bass lines. Why not? I don't get lead solos, so I do not need modes. When I do mess around with modes I use parallel or pitch axis modes. Another story best done on another thread.

[JTE]

That's why I hate how modes are so commonly taught. Yeah, a ii V I (and the ii IS a minor chord so the convention is to use lower case Roman numerals) CAN be worked through by playing Dorian for the ii and Mixolydian for the V. But this totally eviscerates the fact that those three chords are ALL IN THE SAME KEY and relate to each other.

Now, before you go any further with modes, make sure you own basic chords. IF you had known the chords like a bassist should, you'd have immediately seen the answer.

The ii chord in C is Dmin7. What IS a Dmin7? It's D F A C.
The V chord in C is G7, which is G B D F
The I chord in C is CMaj7 which is C E G B

Put them together and you have C D E F G A B C, the notes of the C major scale. But it's not an accident that those three chords all have the notes of the C major scale. That's because the designation ii V I came about from those chords both all being naturally in the key of C, AND from those three chord relating to each other in the key of C.

The I chord is the 1, 3, 5, and 7th notes of the C scale. The ii chord is the 2, 4, 6, and 8 (1st) notes of the C scale. The V chord is 5, 7, 9 (2), and 11 (4) notes. That means the I chord is every other note starting on the first note (one); that the ii chord is every other note of the C scale starting on D (two); that the V chord is every other note starting on G (five). Dmin7 resolves a fourth to G7 which resolves a fourth to C. THAT'S what is special about a ii V I.

And that's precisely why thinking of them as three separate scales is so ludicrous. There's simply no utility in mentally switching gears from D Dorian to G Mixolydian to C Ionian when they're all the same notes. The only thing that kind of thinking does is encourage disjointed flow of notes. If however one sees that the Dmin7 G7 C progression is all in the key of C major so your pallet is C D E F G A B C, and you know that your key target notes to define the harmony move from D, F, and A to G, B, D, and F then to C, E, and G, you'll have the tools to create the line that both tells the rest of the band what the current chord is, but also how THIS chord relates to the one before and the one coming after it. It also makes setting up your transition from one chord to the next much smoother because you're thinking the same scale.

A large part of this problem comes about from people only playing and thinking of scales (and modes) from root-to-root. You should be able to hear and play the major scale starting on any note. When you practice the major scale, don't just play it as fast as you can. SING each note before you play it, and sing the interval name. So, if I'm practicing the G scale on a four-string, I'm starting with the open E string and singing "6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1... etc."

Go through the TB collective and find all the (seemingly monthly) threads about modes/chords, the logical progression of learning theory, and the harmonized scale. Those tools will serve you much better than getting bits and pieces in a disjointed order.

John

[NCD]

Oddly enough I think I followed that. I love melodic lines and so I was looking at his basic soloing tute.

If I get it, what mode you play depends on what the underlying chord is at that time you get your lead break.

CMaj = Key

ii = Chord

So you'd be able to solo with all the notes contained within a Dm chord, which is where practicing your continuous arpeggios comes in. You practice them from open string to highest fret, so you have a wide array of choices... which allows you to have more to work with when you solo or build a melodic line.

It all appears to be making sense... which is scary. It's either a breakthrough moment or I'm off in left field and don't know it yet.

[champbassist]

Originally Posted by JTE

Dmin7 G7 C progression is all in the key of C major so your pallet is C D E F G A B C

+1 to all of your post; additionally, the quoted part is key (excuse the pun). Progressions and songs can be in modal keys. That's when thinking of modes really helps. Again, as I do on almost all mode related threads, I'd advise anyone new to modal theory to check out Frank Gambale's 'Modes: No More Mystery' lesson video. Really clears up basic stuff very well.

[Russell L]

I understand it up and down, back and forward, but I really don't think of all this when I solo. An exception might be that I am aware of when I'm playing blues or rock where most of the chords have dominant 7s, and therefore the harmony is mixolydian, as opposed to being diatonic within a key. Likewise, if I'm playing a minor tune I will be aware of what kind of minor harmony is predominant. But, I don't really consider much about what mode to play from chord to chord. I'm just in the key, basically, until something changes that (if that makes sense).

[NCD]

Could someone good with theory look at my last and either confirm that I grasp this correctly or correct me if I'm wrong? I just don't want to spend the next week learning it with this approach and then find out that I need to unlearn and relearn it all!

[sammyp]

a mode is better heard and understood when it's on a vamp featuring the chord it is associated with....like if someone's playing an Em groove and the soloist plays E Dorian ....it's a complete fool's erand and waste of time associating jazz changes like ii V I with modal ideas....jazz players don't think this way and if you do you'll be chasing your tail every 2 beats of a bar...

jazz is like any other music ...it is a language that must be learned ....start with 2 5 1 licks and bass lines ...there's far more to be gained by studying arpeggios, chord tones and how to use passing tones or chromatics between chord tones

for modal stuff in jazz check out miles davis "so what" and "milestones" ....these tunes are more static and make less or no use of 2 5 1 stuff!

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by NCD

Could someone good with theory look at my last and either confirm that I grasp this correctly or correct me if I'm wrong? I just don't want to spend the next week learning it with this approach and then find out that I need to unlearn and relearn it all!

Originally Posted by NCD

Oddly enough I think I followed that. I love melodic lines and so I was looking at his basic soloing tute.

If I get it, what mode you play depends on what the underlying chord is at that time you get your lead break.

CMaj = Key

ii = Chord

So you'd be able to solo with all the notes contained within a Dm chord, which is where practicing your continuous arpeggios comes in. You practice them from open string to highest fret, so you have a wide array of choices... which allows you to have more to work with when you solo or build a melodic line.

It all appears to be making sense... which is scary. It's either a breakthrough moment or I'm off in left field and don't know it yet.

Yes you are right. Over the Dm chord you could use all the notes not only of that chord you could use all the notes of the Dm scale or let's change over to saying selected notes of the Dm chord or Dm scale. If we are talking about a solo - a solo is melodic and a bass line is laying down the beat then taking the beat to a groove then calling attention to the chord coming up next. So soloing is going to be different than accompaniment bass. Think about it - when you move from accompaniment to solo someone else is now accompanying YOUR SOLO. You've switched roles, it's now time to play melody.

Soloing is melodic - yes you can be melodic using chord tones. If we rely upon just the chord or scale notes - and play them in chord or scale order - it's going to sound like an arpeggio or scale exercise. We want to get the melody, dare I say tune, in there somehow. IMHO when we accompany we play bass lines and when we solo we play the song's tune. Improvise or embellish all you want, but, there is a melody in there somewhere.

Like notes always harmonize and harmonize notes always sound good together.

Now let's talk about those chords. As "sammyp" pointed out modes lend themselves to modal vamps. Why? A modal vamp will let the modal mood develop. A chord progression is calling attention to the tonal center, and the tonal center may have nothing to do with the modal mood. So if you want to play Dorian over the song - yes the entire song - think about changing from a chord progression to a modal vamp. A modal vamp of not more than two chords; 1. the tonic chord and 2. one of the chords of the tonic scale/key that has Dorian's characteristic natural 6 note in it's makeup. Now that vamp will let Dorian's attractive jazz mood develop. If this is all in C major what is the 6th interval of C Dorian (C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb)? It's the natural A. Is there an A in Dm7? Yes we would have D-F-A-C so a vamp of Cmaj7 and Dm7 will probably do what you want Cmaj7 has the C E G B notes and Dm7 has the D F A C notes. Yep golly shucks all of those are C major scale notes. See everyone has been moving you to the Dm chord and Dorian, however, few told you to use a vamp so the Dorian mood could come forth. Google modal harmony aka modal vamps. Just getting the notes correct is only half the story you need that vamp droning the characteristic note.

You are on the right track. Give some thought to what chords to use under your mode.

[PhiDeck]

Originally Posted by bobdigiac@hotma

I think you are a bit confused on where the modes come from. I just wrote a series of posts explaining where they come from on my website. Check out

http://bobdigiacomo.com/2011/03/14/m...corner-part-i/

Hope this helps you out. I haven't had time yet, but the next section will talk about chords and their relationship to the modes.

I suspect your Web site might help, except that the text is light gray on a lighter gray background. Please let us know when it becomes black text on a white ground.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by NCD

If I get it, what mode you play depends on what the underlying chord is at that time you get your lead break.

It depends on more than just the chord, but also the key that you're in and the function that the chord serves in that key.

Look at the Dmin7 chord in each of the following examples:

1. Dmin7 G7 | C --> This is a ii7-V7-I progression in the key of C. The Dmin7 is the ii chord of C, so you could use Dorian mode (D E F G A B C).

2. F Dmin7 | Gmin7 C7 | F --> This is a I-vi-ii-V progression in F. The Dmin7 is the vi chord of F, so you could use Aeolian mode (D E F G A Bb C).

3. Dmin7 Gmin7 | Cmin7 F7 | Bb --> This is a iii-vi-ii-V-I progression in Bb. The Dmin7 is the iii chord of Bb, so you could use the Phrygian mode (D Eb F G A Bb C).

In each instance, the chord is the same, but the mode you use is different because the chord is serving a different function in the progression.

With that said, I have to emphasize again that thinking in terms of modes is not necessarily the best way to approach these types of chord progressions. In #3 for example, I would not be thinking of changing modes every two beats ("D Phrygian, G Aeolian, C Dorian, F Mixolydian, Bb Ionian"). Instead, I would be thinking, "Here is a 3 bar progression in the key of Bb. Focus on the chord tones for each of the chords, and recognize that you can connect the chord tones with notes from the Bb scale." I think that this is exactly what JTE was getting at when he wrote this earlier in the thread:

Originally Posted by JTE

There's simply no utility in mentally switching gears from D Dorian to G Mixolydian to C Ionian when they're all the same notes. The only thing that kind of thinking does is encourage disjointed flow of notes. If however one sees that the Dmin7 G7 C progression is all in the key of C major so your pallet is C D E F G A B C, and you know that your key target notes to define the harmony move from D, F, and A to G, B, D, and F then to C, E, and G, you'll have the tools to create the line that both tells the rest of the band what the current chord is, but also how THIS chord relates to the one before and the one coming after it. It also makes setting up your transition from one chord to the next much smoother because you're thinking the same scale.

[NCD]

Febs I really DO appreciate the effort you took to point that out and I get it... but the way you phrased it came close to making a circuit breaker pop in my head and smoke come out my ears.

So first I want to thank you for the explanation! But I think this is a perfect opportunity to point out what seems to be a huge flaw in the way that music is taught to beginners... and I'm sure it's the main reason that so many people give up on learning theory or, worse, playing altogether. How many people do each and every one of us know who said "I always wanted to learn to play BUT..."

I'm at that in between zone... I get the concepts but the terms still make me blink or have to think pretty hard at times.

I'm about at the level of a PhD in something totally different than music and one of the hardest things for me to do in the last five or so years is when I need to sit down and explain things to someone who has no background at all in the subject. In that topic, it's as if I can't even relate to people who are at a beginners level anymore. The subject of my expertise isn't family friendly so I won't go into it here but the subject isn't' what's important... what is important is that the experts and teachers need to remember how to explain things and relate to people who wouldn't know a Dorian from a Delorian.

So please humor me for a moment as I go on a rant about this.

WARNING: Begin rant...

Isn't it simpler to say that the same four notes forming the given chord can appear in different keys?

As a result, where the chord is within the key (ii or V or whatever) will be different in each key, changing it's function at the time.

What I'm finding is that theory is maddeningly confusing only because it's practically lawyer-speak.

Latin speak:
In the key of CMaj you play the I chord of C7 in Ionian mode and you play the ii Chord of Dm7 in Dorian mode. If you were in they key of F then Dm7 is now the vi chord and played in Aeolian mode, while in Bb you will find that Dm7 is played in Phrygian mode and is considered to be the iii chord.

The above confuses the living daylights out of people who are trying to learn this stuff and it's the number one reason people get frustrated and quit trying to learn theory.

Instead, put it in normal person speak... like this:

Modes seem to be confusing but they're actually only confusing because they're harder to explain than they are to use. Using them isn't hard, explaining them takes a lawyer.

First thing to know is that even though the key has a mode, the "mode" isn't set in stone because when people talk about modes they often aren't referring to the mode in relation to the root of the key. They're talking about the mode in relation to the root of the chord, when that chord is played within a specific key. Beginners often seem to think that the mode is set in stone once the key is decided and this leads to all sorts of confusion.

A mode is nothing more than the sequence of whole and half steps in the key, AKA tones and semitones, when you start out from the root of whatever chord is being used at the moment. That last part in italics is critical to the whole idea of modes!

When people say that a key is in a certain mode, they're talking about the sequence of whole and half steps in the scale when you start out from the root of the key itself.

But if you start from another note, such as the second chord of the scale, you get a different sequence of whole and half steps because you're starting from the second note of the key and shoving the first one to the back of the bus. IE:

CDEFGAB is the good old C Major scale. it's sequence is WWhWWWh. The sequence of steps is called a "mode" and that particular sequence is called the "Ionian" mode.

Now... let's say we were told by some Latin lawyer speaking music brainiac that they wanted us to stay within that key but play "in Dorian mode". What the heck does that mean, anyway?? It's terms like this that make the brain smoke.... but never fear.

Dorian mode is a different sequence of steps, right? It's actually WhWWWhW.

Okay... so all we need to do is take the first note of the key and shove it to the back of the bus, then check the series of steps and see what sequence it is. If it's not the sequence we need then take the next note and shove it to the back of the bus and check again until we get the sequence we need.

The key of CMaj is CDEFGAB and the steps are WWhWWWh. Since that sequence is known to be Ionian, we're not there yet. So we shove the C to the back of the bus, and it takes it's W with it, like so:

DEFGAB-C... this gives us:

WhWWWh-W... hey, that's the right sequence for the Dorian mode!

So when you're in the key of C Major and you're playing in Dorian mode, it means you're playing the notes of the C Major scale but the root of the chord being used at the moment is going to be whatever one that results in WhWWWhW... which is Dm7.

The tricky part is that when you look at Dm7 itself, it won't always be Dorian. Remember, the mode is the sequence of steps when you look at the notes of the key, starting off from the chord of the moment.

If we play that same Dm7 in the key of F (F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E) then you start with the D... which gives us a sequence of D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C.

Well that gives us a sequence of WhWWhWW... which Latin speaking music theory zealots have defined as the Aeolian mode.

Why is all this important? Well, it IS important but it's easier to understand than it is to explain. Here's the real deal:

When you change the sequence of notes and play through with feeling, you get various emotional impressions. Some are happy, some are somber, some are angry, some are introspective and some are sassy. Long ago the Latin speaking gurus figured out that the emotional impression you got wasn't related to the key itself but, instead, was related to the sequence of the steps when you play the notes of the key starting out from the root of whatever chord you were using at the moment in your harmony.

Since emotion is so important in music, they studied this trend and put it under a microscope. They looked at all the little details that make it work and caused these sequences (modes) to create each emotion and then they did something horrible... they tried to explain it all with words.

If you feel it, you can do it. It's based in feelings... the long explanations and confusing terms are really nothing more than all the words people try to use to explain why it all works.

Here's the kicker... it takes a long time to explain all this to someone and get that person to the point that they understand it. However, once they get it, you don't need to explain that you want to play something with a less jumpy feel, and maybe have it feel a little more subdued.

You just say that you want to play in a certain mode, and the person understands already that the mode you want has a certain feel... so now they know what sort of feeling you're going for.

Once you get it the first time and the light bulb goes on over your head, all the complicated terms aren't such a pain.

Just remember that the terms are FAR more complicated than the ideas that the terms represent. Don't get frustrated by the big words. Focus on the ideas and concepts.

Then it all falls into place

Sorry, I went off a LOT longer than I wanted to but I think this pretty much sums up the frustration that many of us feel when it comes to theory.

It wouldn't be so bad but it IS bad... it's bad because many beginners get so confused and frustrated that they often walk away from music altogether and it's not because they can't get the concepts or that they can't play. It's because the explanations frustrate and confuse people so badly that they just can't deal with it anymore and often go play a video game instead. I know that's what I did for over 20 years and that's sad... because I love to play and now that I've caught on to the ideas and concepts, I'm cranking along with my arpeggios and having a blast!

Most end up quitting and never learning to play, and that's sad. Then we have so many others who can play by ear but never learned to read music because the explanations frustrated them to the point that they tossed the theory books in the trash.

But at least they didn't quit playing.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by NCD

Febs I really DO appreciate the effort you took to point that out and I get it... but the way you phrased it came close to making a circuit breaker pop in my head and smoke come out my ears.

So first I want to thank you for the explanation! But I think this is a perfect opportunity to point out what seems to be a huge flaw in the way that music is taught to beginners... and I'm sure it's the main reason that so many people give up on learning theory or, worse, playing altogether. How many people do each and every one of us know who said "I always wanted to learn to play BUT..."

I'm at that in between zone... I get the concepts but the terms still make me blink or have to think pretty hard at times.

I'm about at the level of a PhD in something totally different than music and one of the hardest things for me to do in the last five or so years is when I need to sit down and explain things to someone who has no background at all in the subject. In that topic, it's as if I can't even relate to people who are at a beginners level anymore. The subject of my expertise isn't family friendly so I won't go into it here but the subject isn't' what's important... what is important is that the experts and teachers need to remember how to explain things and relate to people who wouldn't know a Dorian from a Delorian.

So please humor me for a moment as I go on a rant about this.

WARNING: Begin rant...

Isn't it simpler to say that the same four notes forming the given chord can appear in different keys?

As a result, where the chord is within the key (ii or V or whatever) will be different in each key, changing it's function at the time.

What I'm finding is that theory is maddeningly confusing only because it's practically lawyer-speak.

Latin speak:
In the key of CMaj you play the I chord of C7 in Ionian mode and you play the ii Chord of Dm7 in Dorian mode. If you were in they key of F then Dm7 is now the vi chord and played in Aeolian mode, while in Bb you will find that Dm7 is played in Phrygian mode and is considered to be the iii chord.

The above confuses the living daylights out of people who are trying to learn this stuff and it's the number one reason people get frustrated and quit trying to learn theory.

Instead, put it in normal person speak... like this:



Sorry, I went off a LOT longer than I wanted to but I think this pretty much sums up the frustration that many of us feel when it comes to theory.

It wouldn't be so bad but it IS bad... it's bad because many beginners get so confused and frustrated that they often walk away from music altogether and it's not because they can't get the concepts or that they can't play. It's because the explanations frustrate and confuse people so badly that they just can't deal with it anymore and often go play a video game instead. I know that's what I did for over 20 years and that's sad... because I love to play and now that I've caught on to the ideas and concepts, I'm cranking along with my arpeggios and having a blast!

Most end up quitting and never learning to play, and that's sad. Then we have so many others who can play by ear but never learned to read music because the explanations frustrated them to the point that they tossed the theory books in the trash.

But at least they didn't quit playing.

I would submit that most of this confusion comes because people learn things out of order. If you learn the basic building blocks and build from there in a logical fashion, it eliminates the confusion. For example, if you first learn how to build the major scale, then learn how to harmonize it, then learn the chord functions, by the time you get to Dorian mode, you've already GOT the information that tells you why the Dmin7 is the ii of C (and D Dorian is valid) but it's the vi of F where D Aeolian is valid.

But when someone hears that "you gotta learn modes" before they understand the basics of harmony, you get this confusion.

John

[Febs]

Originally Posted by NCD

Febs I really DO appreciate the effort you took to point that out and I get it... but the way you phrased it came close to making a circuit breaker pop in my head and smoke come out my ears.

I used modes in my example because you specifically asked about modes. If I were teaching you this stuff from scratch, I wouldn't have introduced the concept of modes until you had some other basic concepts under your belt (like harmonizing the major scale).

Here are the points I tried to make in my last post:

(1) The mode you would select over a particular chord is going to depend on the function of the chord in the key you are in. A Dmin7 chord functioning as a ii chord in C is not going to be associated with the same mode as a Dmin7 chord functioning as the iii chord in Bb or the vi chord in F.

(2) Modes aren't very useful in this context. It is more practical to focus on the chord tones and to recognize that the key you are provides you with a collection of notes you can use to connect the chord tones. JTE's posts explain this in more detail.

I am assuming in this response that you have certain basic knowledge, like what I mean when I say "ii chord" or "iii chord" because you have used these terms in your posts. If these terms or anything else about my post is confusing to you, I respectfully suggest that it would be more productive for you to ask further questions or even to ignore my post than to lecture me about how my posts drive people away from music.

[NCD]

I wasn't trying to lecture at all Febs and I was totally sincere when I expressed my appreciation for your explanation. Sorry if you didn't feel appreciated but your effort IS appreciated.

I also think JTE is right about learning things out of order but as one who has recently had to go search out all this information I can tell you that between all the different book approaches and the disjointed, randomly ordered information on the internet it's very difficult for someone who is teaching themselves to figure out what order to work on all of this in.

The order that I happened to take was scales, simple notation reading and time, basic mention of modes and their step sequences, chords, walking bass line theory including scalar/dominant/chromatic approaches and then it's been on to full arpeggios (all the notes of an arpeggio on the neck, not just the few at the top of the neck).

But the biggest problem when you're ferreting out information for yourself is that there is very little to explain how it all interrelates. That's where a teacher comes in, I know. If I could afford to pay for lessons I would... but I, like many others, am stuck trying to teach myself for now.