theory geeks: lydian over maj7

[mambo4]

a thought occurred to me while posting to a thread about pentatonics.

Say you have a Maj7 chord (jazz context)

The wisdom I learned was: don't solo over it using a major (ionian) scale because the 4th scale degree clashes with the 3rd of the chord , being only a half step away. The perfect fourth is often considered an 'avoid note' For this reason, the Lydian scale (raised 4th) is often preferred. Makes sense to me...

BUT!

here's my curiosity: why doesn't the lydian raised 4th scale degree clash with the 5th of the Maj7 chord? Is there reason the logic of clashing with the 3rd doesn't apply to the 5th?

Theory logic aside, I suppose ears are the ultimate judge...

_{I was just hoping to spark a 7 page theory debate anyhow....}

[bass12]

And why doesn't the sharp 7 clash with the I?

[Slax]

The raised 4th would also create a tritone with the root and 4th also with the 4th an 8th. That should sound even more dissonant...

I'm curious to what the replies are, I'm interested in this too.

[Fergie Fulton]

Its a question of intervals and what context you use them as the the intervals at 3 and 4 will tell the story as to which and what should be raised or lowered.

Ionian intervals T-T-S-T-T-T-S
Lydian intervals T-T-T-S-T-T-S

As you see the first two are the same and the last three are the same. its context in scale form is that the Ionian is all the white notes on a piano C-C and the Lydian is all the white notes on a piano F to F. which gives you for the want of an easy example, a 4th C to F in all modes except Lydian as it is the only scale of the classical seven to have its first three intervals as T-T-T.

[derekd]

I am a guitar player who plays bass some. I use lydian over major, particularly major 7th chords, all the time. I dunno if you can get by with this as a bass player though. I play jazz in a couple of settings, but the guys I play bass with wouldn't know a major 7th chord it if bit them on the butt.

I will ask the bassist I play jazz with. Good question.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

Its a question of intervals and what context you use them as the the intervals at 3 and 4 will tell the story as to which and what should be raised or lowered.

Ionian intervals T-T-S-T-T-T-S
Lydian intervals T-T-T-S-T-T-S

As you see the first two are the same and the last three are the same. its context in scale form is that the Ionian is all the white notes on a piano C-C and the Lydian is all the white notes on a piano F to F. which gives you for the want of an easy example, a 4th C to F in all modes except Lydian as it is the only scale of the classical seven to have its first three intervals as T-T-T.

Wow, this didn't answer his question at all.

And it's a shame, because it's a good question. A very common misconception about the whole avoid note thing is it is because the natural four is a half step away from the natural three, or because the natural four forms a tritone with the natural 7th. Both are dissonant intervals the half step and the tritone, but that isn't the real reason. The reason is because the natural 4 (or in this case, 11), forms a minor second, and usually a minor 9th, interval with a tone of the triad. As any arranger knows, the interval of the minor 9th is the only interval in the gamut that truly needs to be avoided in every voicing except on very specific chords and for very specific, advanced effects. It's what is known as an "unacceptable dissonance".

Basically, the minor 9th serves to create a very harsh interval with one of the stable tones of the triad, and ruins the stability of the chord completely. Other examples are the natural 11 on a dominant seventh chord, b13 on a minor 7th chord, natural 13 on an augmented 7th (or augmented major 7) chord, and, while less obvious than the other ones, b9 on a minor 7 b5 chord. These will occur naturally in the key sometimes, so its a good thing to keep in mind when voicing chords.

Minor 9ths asides, HALF-step dissonances are very desirable in arranging, whether they be voiced as a minor 2nd or major 7th. Herb Pomeroy, the legendary jazz teacher, called these "Prime Dissonances". #11 to 5 is one. This isn't bad, because you the ear still perceives the stability of the triad, and the #11 is just a color to that triad. If you voice the #11 up an octave, that's also good, because it becomes a major 7th, and that's cool. Now, you couldn't, for example voice a #11 an octave BELOW the 5, because that then creates a minor 9th between the #11 and the 5, but a minor 2nd is OK.

This is a lot of arranging mumbo-jumbo, and there are exceptions to these guidelines, but what it comes down to are that the notes that are "avoid notes" are called such because when displaced an octave form a minor ninth with a tone of the triad.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by bass12

And why doesn't the sharp 7 clash with the I?

That's actually a good question. In basic mechanical arranging, you're taught that whenever the note in the melody is the root, you should voice a major 6 chord instead of a major 7th. Half-step intervals on the top of voicings are very difficult to sound in tune (and destroy the integrity of the melody), and if you drop the major 7th down an octave, it forms a minor 9th to the root, which, like I said in my other post, isn't desirable.

Now, of course plenty of arrangers have bucked this "rule", but they did so knowing the effect.

[mpmackenna]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Wow, this didn't answer his question at all.

And it's a shame, because it's a good question. A very common misconception about the whole avoid note thing is it is because the natural four is a half step away from the natural three, or because the natural four forms a tritone with the natural 7th. Both are dissonant intervals the half step and the tritone, but that isn't the real reason. The reason is because the natural 4 (or in this case, 11), forms a minor second, and usually a minor 9th, interval with a tone of the triad. As any arranger knows, the interval of the minor 9th is the only interval in the gamut that truly needs to be avoided in every voicing except on very specific chords and for very specific, advanced effects. It's what is known as an "unacceptable dissonance".

Basically, the minor 9th serves to create a very harsh interval with one of the stable tones of the triad, and ruins the stability of the chord completely. Other examples are the natural 11 on a dominant seventh chord, b13 on a minor 7th chord, natural 13 on an augmented 7th (or augmented major 7) chord, and, while less obvious than the other ones, b9 on a minor 7 b5 chord. These will occur naturally in the key sometimes, so its a good thing to keep in mind when voicing chords.

Minor 9ths asides, HALF-step dissonances are very desirable in arranging, whether they be voiced as a minor 2nd or major 7th. Herb Pomeroy, the legendary jazz teacher, called these "Prime Dissonances". #11 to 5 is one. This isn't bad, because you the ear still perceives the stability of the triad, and the #11 is just a color to that triad. If you voice the #11 up an octave, that's also good, because it becomes a major 7th, and that's cool. Now, you couldn't, for example voice a #11 an octave BELOW the 5, because that then creates a minor 9th between the #11 and the 5, but a minor 2nd is OK.

This is a lot of arranging mumbo-jumbo, and there are exceptions to these guidelines, but what it comes down to are that the notes that are "avoid notes" are called such because when displaced an octave form a minor ninth with a tone of the triad.

Wow, I know next to nothing about theory and was lucky to understand 25% of that post, but it sounded very logical and concise. Some day I hope to understand all of that.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Wow, this didn't answer his question at all.

It answers the question at a basic level leaving those who read it a spark to explore more and can be carried forward to some of the conclussions you have stated in your very full and concise reply. But i assume that what you have written may go over the heads of those who need it most. Great work but a truck load of questions on it coming your way.... i feel. LOL Great stuff.

[JtheJazzMan]

Originally Posted by mambo4

a thought occurred to me while posting to a thread about pentatonics.

Say you have a Maj7 chord (jazz context)

The wisdom I learned was: don't solo over it using a major (ionian) scale because the 4th scale degree clashes with the 3rd of the chord , being only a half step away. The perfect fourth is often considered an 'avoid note' For this reason, the Lydian scale (raised 4th) is often preferred. Makes sense to me...

BUT!

here's my curiosity: why doesn't the lydian raised 4th scale degree clash with the 5th of the Maj7 chord? Is there reason the logic of clashing with the 3rd doesn't apply to the 5th?

Theory logic aside, I suppose ears are the ultimate judge...

_{I was just hoping to spark a 7 page theory debate anyhow....}

personally i think the "avoid note" "rules" are awful. youd be better off forgetting them

the b9 interval that can be created is one reason, but i think thats rather situational dependant. playing the root note on a Major7th chord can create a b9 too, as arrangers know.

but to give another answer your question, your changing the tonal function area of the chord if you play a perfect/natural 4th or 11th over a major chord.

Chord Imaj, III-7, VI-7 are in the tonic area, II-7, IVmaj are in the subdominant area, V7 VII-7b5 are in the dominant.

so if you pick a key, say C maj, the "avoid note rule" applies to the Cmaj and the G7. they are in different tonal areas, C being in the tonic, G being in the dominant. none of the tonic chords contain the note F, and none of the dominant chords contain the note C.

this is why you also get the "rule" "no b9's on minor or diminished triads" as well.

personally, i think its crap.

by saying you should "avoid" playing that note, you are missing the effect you can create.

perfect 4ths are always used over major chords, as suspensions.

i personally like using the b9 on min and dim chords

[JtheJazzMan]

Originally Posted by mambo4

here's my curiosity: why doesn't the lydian raised 4th scale degree clash with the 5th of the Maj7 chord? Is there reason the logic of clashing with the 3rd doesn't apply to the 5th?

and just to add,

the #11 doesnt change the tonic area. the #11 note doesnt function in the same way the tonic and dominant do

to full answer your question

[BillMason]

The sharp 4 (or sharp 11) is a blues note, and resolves to the 5th. The Perfect 4th is a stable note, and tends to more indicate a chord change to the IV.

[rythmicillusion]

Originally Posted by mambo4

Theory logic aside, I suppose ears are the ultimate judge...

One of my teachers (a pretty famous player and singer), responding to my question about playing over changes, gave me the following assignment; On the piano, figure out which scales work with which chords, and report back. Don't consult a book...do it through trial and error. So essentially, my job was to play a voicing of a chord, and test all the possible scale solutions against that.

This was a pain in the balls at first, but gradually, things fell into place. Why certain scale tones should be "avoided" became obvious very quickly using this method. The theory behind why certain scales work with certain chords became apparent through the movement of sound, instead of being isolated as rules in a textbook.

I gotta believe that HaVIC5 has done this sort of work, in addition to more traditional, institutional studies.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

It answers the question at a basic level leaving those who read it a spark to explore more and can be carried forward to some of the conclussions you have stated in your very full and concise reply. But i assume that what you have written may go over the heads of those who need it most. Great work but a truck load of questions on it coming your way.... i feel. LOL Great stuff.

Donny, you're out of your element.

/Lebowski

[HaVIC5]

by saying you should "avoid" playing that note, you are missing the effect you can create.

That's why it's a misnomer to call it just an "avoid note". More and more people are calling it a "harmonic avoid note", since if you were to include that note in the voicing, it would destroy the effect of the chord. Although there are exceptions to even that, in the hands of experienced arrangers....

The sharp 4 (or sharp 11) is a blues note, and resolves to the 5th. The Perfect 4th is a stable note, and tends to more indicate a chord change to the IV.

The sharp 4 can be a blues note...and it can also be stable. Stack thirds on a C major 7 chord up beyond the octave so you get C E G B D F# A. That F# doesn't have any particular need to resolve anywhere, whereas an F natural definitely would need to resolve downwards.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by rythmicillusion

One of my teachers (a pretty famous player and singer), responding to my question about playing over changes, gave me the following assignment; On the piano, figure out which scales work with which chords, and report back. Don't consult a book...do it through trial and error. So essentially, my job was to play a voicing of a chord, and test all the possible scale solutions against that.

This was a pain in the balls at first, but gradually, things fell into place. Why certain scale tones should be "avoided" became obvious very quickly using this method. The theory behind why certain scales work with certain chords became apparent through the movement of sound, instead of being isolated as rules in a textbook.

I gotta believe that HaVIC5 has done this sort of work, in addition to more traditional, institutional studies.

Well, yes, I guess, but that just comes from taking the academic studies and applying it to the real world. You have these rules academia has created for pedagogical purposes, and thankfully in my schooling I had professors that were able to explain the rationale behind those rules, and when, if ever, it might be reasonable to break them for 1) effect 2) contrapuntal necessity or 3) their irrelevance for the style of music being made. I have, however, on my own sat down at a piano and figured out a lot of these exceptions out on my own and come up with some REALLY sweet ideas. Like, for example, Ebmaj7/Db with D voiced really high in the lead. According to every chord scale reference this shouldn't work, but it sounds amazing.

[HaVIC5]

i personally like using the b9 on min and dim chords

They have they're effects. Voiced in functional harmony, however...eh...I dunno. It's hard to say without the context, but I for one haven't found anything too convincing for functional harmony with regards to b9 on minor and diminished chords.

An interesting note for maj7 chords is #9. Duke Ellington loved this chord for an ending chord. If you know what an auxiliary diminished is, this kind of chord sounds like the tonic auxiliary diminished superimposed on the tonic major chord. Very cool. An interesting not for minor 7 chords (and even more interesting for minor/maj7 chords) is the #11. The justification for the #11 on minor 7 chords is it comes from the fourth mode of the harmonic minor, and can be used on IV-7 in that context. I have no idea what the justification of the #11 on a minor/maj7 chord is (other than the fourth mode of the so-called "harmonic major" scale, or possibly a non-tertian expansion of the sixth mode of the harmonic minor), but it sounds bitchin. Try this chord on for scale... C G B Eb F#

[mambo4]

I'm seeing 2 reasons put fourth to explain my question...

Originally Posted by BillMason

The sharp 4 (or sharp 11) is a blues note, and resolves to the 5th. The Perfect 4th is a stable note, and tends to more indicate a chord change to the IV.

Reason 1: By adding the nat 4 to a tonic triad, you're not really playing a tonic triad anymore, its more like changing it to a IV maj7 add9 (no 3rd)

Originally Posted by HAVIC5

Basically, the minor 9th serves to create a very harsh interval with one of the stable tones of the triad, and ruins the stability of the chord completely.

Reason 2: the direction of the half step interval created is important. In other words:

the 4th is a half step above a triad tone( 3rd )and creates dissonance with without implying a desired resolution(?)
WHILE
the #4th is a half step Below a triad tone and creates dissonance that implies upward resolution.

By this logic,over a major triad , b2(aka b9), nat4, and b6(aka b13) should all be less pleasant than #2(aka#9),#4(aka#11) and nat 7. But the 4th is the only note in the major scale that causes this problem ...so it's the only one to be singled out for "avoidance."

^{i hope that's enough fuel to keep the thread going. c'mon guys start arguing more}

[Jake of Bass]

I'm getting a little confused here.

So, to put it really simply, a lydian scale has a #11 and thus the interval from either the 3rd or the 5th is a major 9th or major 7th, respectively? And a natural IV up the octave obviously being the XI then creates the minor 9th and thus the resulting dissonance is undesirable?

What I'm not getting is that the tritone created from the root (#4) is creating dissonance. So for these reasons is the main reason a major pentatonic scale "works" the way it does, because there aren't any clashing intervals regardless of octave?

Yeah, there are kinda 3 trains of thought running there, but it's how my mind works sometimes.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by Jake of Bass

I'm getting a little confused here.

So, to put it really simply, a lydian scale has a #11 and thus the interval from either the 3rd or the 5th is a major 9th or major 7th, respectively? And a natural IV up the octave obviously being the XI then creates the minor 9th and thus the resulting dissonance is undesirable?

What I'm not getting is that the tritone created from the root (#4) is creating dissonance. So for these reasons is the main reason a major pentatonic scale "works" the way it does, because there aren't any clashing intervals regardless of octave?

Yeah, there are kinda 3 trains of thought running there, but it's how my mind works sometimes.

The tritone, believe it or not, is not considered a dissonant interval for the purposes of voicing theory. It is "dissonant" in a broader context but it isn't unstable, and can be found plenty in all sorts of voicing structures for all chords. Dissonances of the seventh and second are considered the dissonances for the purposes of creating voicings, and only the minor 9th is considered strong enough to be avoided in most circumstances.

Here are some typical voicings with tritones in them. If tritones weren't allowed, you couldn't have these chords.

Any 7th chord
-7(b5) chords
Augmented 7th chords with tensions on them (they can have as many as three tritones, such as the case with this voicing: C Bb E F# G# D. A very stable voicing.)
7 with b13 and natural 9 (TT)
7 with 13 and #9
7 with b9 and 5
7 with #11
-7 with 13 and b3

Etc.