Theory (key) Question...

[kahanamoku]

I'm developing a bass line for a song that follows a pretty simple chord progression for both the chorus and verse...

Verse

D - Bb - F

Prechorus

Eb - Bb - F - Eb - Bb -C

Chorus

F - Bb - D - Bb


I'm trying to figure out what key this song is in. I'm pretty sure it's a form of F, but it can't be Major or Minor can it? Neither of those keys have an Eb. Does this make it F Dorian?

Thanks in advance for the help.

[onlyclave]

Looks like some variant of Bb Major to me. Can't tell without hearing it.

Unless you're writing something down in standard notation, does it really matter what key it's in? Do you transpose your tunes to other keys like F# or A?

[kahanamoku]

Here's the song...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ5BU...x=0&playnext=1

[kahanamoku]

I guess I'm thinkin' too hard. I think it's just a straight up Bb Major.

[hennessybass]

I thought Bb too.

Goes to the II chord on the prechorus.

Other than that it seem like a basic major scale thing. I - II - III - IV - V

[kahanamoku]

I'm kind of new to theory. Not used to seeing the root pop up in the middle of a 3 chord progression. Probably happens all the time.

[GianGian]

That D major is on the way. I mean, it is a "sharp chord". It doesn't belong in F nor in Bb. Maybe that confused you. I haven't heard it, but it looks like Bb to me.

[kahanamoku]

Wait... now I am confused again. Isn't D the III in a Bb Major?

[chjohnst]

Can't the song move to different keys? Confused on how you would determine Bb major from this progression. I generally always like to think the first note or chord played usually defines the key but other parts of the song can move to different keys (major to minor, etc)

[chjohnst]

Originally Posted by kahanamoku

Wait... now I am confused again. Isn't D the III in a Bb Major?

Yea a D is the III in a Bb major

[MonetBass]

Originally Posted by kahanamoku

Wait... now I am confused again. Isn't D the III in a Bb Major?

Yes, d is the iii (minor) in Bb major. However since you're playing a D Major chord, it would contain an F#, which doesn't occur in the key of Bb major. So I'd call it a borrowed chord from g minor, the relative minor of Bb major. The D major chord would be the V in g minor. Composers/songwriters do that all of the time.

If it sounds good, go with it. Don't get too hung up on keys when writing.

[kahanamoku]

The first note does not always define they key. Often times it does not. I would say that a song ends on the note of it's key more often than it starts on it.

Usually I look at all the chords in the progression and try to dtermine which keys have all those notes. Maybe this isn't the best way, but I usually figure it out with this method. Not sure why I had such trouble with this particular song.

[hertzdem]

it's in the key of F,D being the sixth,it's probably a Dm,then it all makes sense(theoretically)

[kahanamoku]

Originally Posted by MonetBass

Yes, d is the iii (minor) in Bb major. However since you're playing a D Major chord, it would contain an F#, which doesn't occur in the key of Bb major.

My bad, the D is a minor.

[kahanamoku]

Originally Posted by hertzdem

it's in the key of F,D being the sixth,it's probably a Dm,then it all makes sense(theoretically)

See that's what I thought at first, but what's up with the Eb...

My brain is starting to hurt.

[HolmeBass]

Originally Posted by kahanamoku

Wait... now I am confused again. Isn't D the III in a Bb Major?

Dm is the III in Bb major, not D (major).

[MalcolmAmos]

Cheat sheet -- see what scale or key your notes or chords all fit into. Here is a scale cheat sheet. A chord cheat sheet is at the bottom of the page. If they all fit that's your scale or key. Yes to the last note or chord in each verse being a give-a-way to the tonic note or cord. Look for the V7-I cadence, that's another give-a-way.

Major Scale Chart
C D E F G A B...............Notice the C scale has no Sharps
G A B C D E F#.............and the G scale has one, the F#
D E F# G A B C#...........and the D scale keeps the F# and
A B C# D E F# G#.........adds the C#. Then the A scale keeps
E F# G# A B C# D#.......everything and adds the G#. See how
B C# D# E F# G# A#.....it builds on it's self.
F# G# A# B C# D# E#
C# D# E# F# G# A# B#
F G A Bb C D E.............Look what happens with the flat scales
Bb C D Eb F G A...........F has one the Bb, then the Bb scale keeps
Eb F G Ab Bb C D.........it's self and adds the the Eb. Same thing
Ab Bb C Db Eb F G.......the sharp scales did...
Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F
Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb
Memory pegs:
See God Destroy All Earth By F#irey C#haos. Order of the scales with sharps.
Fat cats go down alleys eating birds. Order of the sharps.
Farmer brown eats apple dumplings greasily cooked. Order of the scales with flats.
The key signature is showing three sharps. What scale has three sharps? C has none, G has one, D has two, A has three. Which sharps? Fat = F#, Cat = C# and Go = G# so the A major scale has three sharps, F#, C# and G#.

Natural Minor Scale Chart
A B C D E F G ................Notice how the 6th column of the
E F# G A B C D................Major scale becomes the 1st column
B C# D E F# G A..............in the minor scale and how the 7th
F# G# A B C# D E............column of the Major scale is now the
C# D# E F# G# A B..........2nd column in the minor scale. And
G# A# B C# D# E F#........yep, the 1st column in the Major scale
D# E# F# G# A# B C#......is now the 3rd column, etc. etc.
A# B# C# D# E# F# G#....Ask your self why? Hint, think relative minor.
D E F G A Bb C
G A Bb C D Eb F
C D Eb F G Ab Bb
F G Ab Bb C Db Eb
Bb C Db Eb F Gb Ab
Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb Db
Ab Bb Cb Db Eb Fb Gb

Here is a Chord cheat sheet. http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/chords/chordchart.htm

You need to know how to do this without the cheat sheet, but, you gotta start somewhere.

Have fun.

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by kahanamoku

See that's what I thought at first, but what's up with the Eb...

My brain is starting to hurt.

Strictly, 2 flats = Bb.
it could modulate from F to Bb for a prechorus. Nobody has to stay in one key for a whole song.

Personally, I don't worry too much about the key when writing a bass line: just use the chords. Connect the roots/chord tones using what the style/my ear will allow.

[HolmeBass]

If the "D's" are all actually minor (Dm) and the "C's" are also actually minor (Cm, Cm7, etc) then you are in Bb. Eb major is the IV of Bb major. So... are those C's actually Cm? It is sort of important when asking a theory question to get the major and minor sense of the chords right, just saying.

[GianGian]

Originally Posted by HolmeBass

If the "D's" are all actually minor (Dm) and the "C's" are also actually minor (Cm, Cm7, etc) then you are in Bb. Eb major is the IV of Bb major. So... are those C's actually Cm? It is sort of important when asking a theory question to get the major and minor sense of the chords right, just saying.

Yeah. To the thread starter, If you read and understand MalcomAmos' post, you will probaly get it. Anyway, it is always important to know the quality of the chords(major, minor, major seventh, minor seventh, etc). The progression you wrote looks more like a progression of roots only, not of chords.