Theory makes my brain hurt!!!

[MrGotBass]

Simply put, I'd like to learn more about musical theory, but its all so complex, and I constantly have to keep looking up different words that I am apperently supposed to already know before reading the acticles. Is there any simple guides to theory floating around. I really can't afford a bass teacher...

[kiwlm]

I don't like to read theory books, on the contrary, I like to do it the way you do. Look at some practical examples, and then refer to the references when I don't understand. I find it easier to memorize/remember something this way compared to just reading the reference material.

I do the same for (off-topic) software programming.

[Billnc]

Theory is absolutely fascinating! It is how we learn to play in the mud, musically speaking. It is simply the way we manipulate sound. Learning theory keeps you from reinventing the wheel. Take anything you learn theoretically and apply it. Immediately. It will have relevance and you will understand it. Painters learn to mix paint, proportion etc, writers grammer. We got our own stuff and it's cool very cool, when applied.

[MrGotBass]

I see what you're getting at, but the problem is that I really learn through example. You could tell me how to do something ten times, but I still will get it better if you show me it once. I'd really appreciate if there was a place to see it from a practical view. For example, in the song "Seek and Destroy" by Metallica, Cliff would play different fills in the chorus:

|----------------------|
|----------------------|
|-------5---7---7-----|
|-0-5-7---0---0---0---|
|-------------------||---------------------||
|-------------------||-------------------o-|
|-7-5---------------||-------5---7---7---o-|
|-----7-6-5-7-6-5--||-0-5-7---0---0---0---|


What I'm asking is: Why those notes? Are those 3rds or 5ths or something? (and more importantly, what the hell is a 3rd or a 5th) What is about those notes that make them sound good played with the open E on the guitar?

[Zombbg4]

Originally Posted by MrGotBass

I see what you're getting at, but the problem is that I really learn through example. You could tell me how to do something ten times, but I still will get it better if you show me it once. I'd really appreciate if there was a place to see it from a practical view. For example, in the song "Seek and Destroy" by Metallica, Cliff would play different fills in the chorus:

|----------------------|
|----------------------|
|-------5---7---7-----|
|-0-5-7---0---0---0---|
|-------------------||---------------------||
|-------------------||-------------------o-|
|-7-5---------------||-------5---7---7---o-|
|-----7-6-5-7-6-5--||-0-5-7---0---0---0---|


What I'm asking is: Why those notes? Are those 3rds or 5ths or something? (and more importantly, what the hell is a 3rd or a 5th) What is about those notes that make them sound good played with the open E on the guitar?

Look into scales, chords, and modes. Once you get a grasp on them, the above example will make sense. In short though, he chose the notes because they fit the scale/chord, which is why they sound good over the E string.

[kiwlm]

Originally Posted by Zombbg4

Look into scales, chords, and modes. Once you get a grasp on them, the above example will make sense. In short though, he chose the notes because they fit the scale/chord, which is why they sound good over the E string.

Isn't this reversed?

He chose the notes because they sound good over the E string, which is why they are in the scale/chord.

[Grantrudd]

I am learning theory, and one book i found helpful was the hal leneord Music Theory book. it does a good job relating everything to bass, and gives you a pretty good idea of what you are doing once you finish it. everything you learn in this book will be relevant to everyday playing, in any genre. if you want to learn A LOT about jazz theory, you should dig into the book Jazz theory by mark levine published by sher publishing company. it seems like a daunting task to read it, but take your time and really understand and enjoy it.

[bassrique]

Intervals are the spaces between notes. You'll find that's not hard to learn, but it is one of the things you must learn.

Here's a TBer on YouTube with a lesson on just what you are asking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2um3_MUZYo

Edit: I didn't watch the whole vid, but I imagine it answers your questions.

[MusicBokonon]

Originally Posted by Billnc

Theory is absolutely fascinating! It is how we learn to play in the mud, musically speaking. It is simply the way we manipulate sound. Learning theory keeps you from reinventing the wheel. Take anything you learn theoretically and apply it. Immediately. It will have relevance and you will understand it. Painters learn to mix paint, proportion etc, writers grammer. We got our own stuff and it's cool very cool, when applied.

Haha fail.

In all seriousness though, I do agree with you. Things immediately escape my mental trap if I can't play them right away on the bass. It does help to have a teacher, though. They help you stay focused and make sure you're not getting distracted. It also reaaallllllyyyy helps if you can read music. If you can't, pick up a lesson book and learn to read music.

(And I already checked my spelling with the exception of reaaalllllyyyy, so don't even try.)

[Cy_Miles]

Many others could explain theory more elequent than I, but my undertanding of theory does give me a strong base (er) foundation to my bass playing. So let me see if I can offer just a couple notes.

It is really all about the Tonic note and the other notes relation to that note.

The Tonic is of course the Key Note, or the main note of that scale.

Scales Scales Scales

Scales do not have to be scary. If you know the song "Doe a Deer" use it to sound out a major scale and get to know it like the back of your hand. MAke sure to do it musically so you develop feel as you learn the scales. Don't just be robotic about it.

And then start sounding out simple songs like nursery rhymes, church hymns or christmas carols. Because they are mostly made within fairly simple melodies and sounding them out helps you learn to find intervals.


Now back to the theory, as you learn "Doe a Deer" learn to count the scale notes so "Doe a Deer a Female Deer" becomes "1, 2 3, 1 3 1 3" etc.

It will take a while but it will make sense as you go.

The most important notes you will learn is 1 3 & 5. Apply 1 3 5 to most chords you ever encounter and you can have a long and busy bass carreer.

Actually you eventually will figure out how all the notes can be used, But I have much better success thinking about the numerical relations and listening to the intervals then I do remebering glossary terms.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by MusicBokonon

Haha fail.

In all seriousness though, I do agree with you. Things immediately escape my mental trap if I can't play them right away on the bass. It does help to have a teacher, though. They help you stay focused and make sure you're not getting distracted. It also reaaallllllyyyy helps if you can read music. If you can't, pick up a lesson book and learn to read music.

(And I already checked my spelling with the exception of reaaalllllyyyy, so don't even try.)

Damn!

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by MrGotBass

Simply put, I'd like to learn more about musical theory, but its all so complex, and I constantly have to keep looking up different words that I am apperently supposed to already know before reading the acticles. Is there any simple guides to theory floating around. I really can't afford a bass teacher...

I believe that with theory - you have to keep using it, for it to stick!

So I played in rock/pop bands for about 20 years and it never came up and so I just ignored it and was illiterate in this respect.

However, since I started trying to play Jazz it's been a different story. Theory is vital in terms of what you are going to play and it gets discussed a lot amongst players and teachers - so in a few years of trying to play Jazz - more had stuck in my mind, then in 20 years where I was playing different music!

Use it or lose it!

[Jazz Ad]

Basic theory (as in chords, scales, intervals and notation) is NOT complex. Don't get nervous about it.
It anything, it can be a bit hard to explain but it is all pretty simple and logical.

[Falcynn]

I recall when I first started playing bass, these articles were right on the front page
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f90/

Now they're slightly less out in the open, but they still have a lot of valuable knowledge if you haven't read it yet. The two articles at the bottom "Introduction to Scale and Chord Theory" along with "Bassline Construction" were especially helpful for me as I was starting out.

Anyways, looking at what you posted with Cliff's bassline, I'd say to learn to get familiar with the different chord shapes/patterns along the neck of the bass. Just taking a quick glance at it I noticed that if Cliff was playing along with an open E, then he was using fairly standard notes to play along. The 7th fret is always (unless you're playing in a non-standard tuning) going to be a fifth of the string it's on, and an octave of the string below it (well...physically, the string above it). While the 5th fret is always going to be a fourth of the string it's being played on.

So just taking a quick peek at the line you posted, I know he's using mostly roots, fourths, fifths, and octaves. In the case of the key they're playing in (E minor E, F#, G, A, B, C, D, E (octave)) the root, fourth and fifth would be E, A, and B as they're the first (root), fourth, and fifth notes in that scale. Using roots, fourths, and fifths are common in most basslines as they're probably the most pleasing to the ear. The only note that doesn't belong in that key is the 6th fret on the E string, or A#, although that's no problem really. You'll learn after playing a few songs that a lot of bassists tend to go outside of the scale when making bass lines, which is perfectly fine. Scales and chords aren't a rigid system of rules that you have to follow, but just a set of guidelines to get you started.

[bluesbass99]

Just to reiterate the above, it is all fairly logical, but you need to spend a certain amount of time to grasp it. Imagine trying to play basketball without knowing any of the rules. The same applies to music. The theory (and I hate to use that word) outlines what bass notes sound best given the chords being played. You can't start just banging out a bunch of notes on the bass without knowing the rules first.

[fender_funk_man]

theory is supposed to make your brain hurt... relax and keep plugging away

[Rune Bivrin]

Learn the intervals (the number of frets between notes) of the major scale, the intervals used in major and minor chords, which chord usually goes when using the notes at the intervals of the major scale as roots. That together with the key (what note is at the bottom of the scale) of the song gets you the notes most likely to fit at each point in the song.

An amazing number of songs adhere to this trivial format, and once you've got that down you can start thinking about adding more theory in the mix.

Most of the time things are hard because we expect them to be hard, not because they are intrinsically hard.

[Stempelloos]

Two hours of math in secondary school made my brain hurt too at times.
Musical theory is a bit like mathematics, it may sound dull and far off, but once you get a bit of grip on it through practicing what you're thought, the pain disappears and a clearer view appears.

[dalkowski]

A lot of excellent, helpful posts on this thread. +1 to all, especially the book recommendations.

Different tokes for different folks. I've tried books over the years, but for whatever reason, theory never REALLY sunk in until I started taking one-on-one lessons. It IS a very orderly, mathematical thing and when you see the patterns, the order of everything, you get those "Eureka!" moments.

Great thing about the bass is that once you know the scale/chord patterns, you can play them anywhere on the neck.

Take it a little at a time, and don't be daunted. Good luck, and good playing!

[Michael Campbel]

Originally Posted by Billnc

Theory is absolutely fascinating!

I agree, but I'm also hardly a standard by which anyone else should be judged! =)