Theory makes my brain hurt!!!

[xzzy]

This book is fairly well regarded:

http://www.edly.com/mtfpp.html

Gives you all the musical terminology without using other music terms to define them. Easy to read plain old english.

[Cinimod]

2 years ago i knew very little about music theory. A couple of months ago i took my grade 7 music theory test and got 82 out of 100. I now find theory quite easy (and interesting) It will make sense eventually. Stick at it!

[MonetBass]

This site starts with the basics. It should help you on your road to understanding.
http://www.musictheory.net/

[ghiadub]

If books and charts are not your thing, try taking a theory lesson from a local bass teacher.

[mambo4]

Most sources of theory info begin with the assumption that you can read, which excludes the majority of beginner bassists IMHO. further, theory 101 classes always seem to spend waaaay to much time on obselete baroque harmony rules and how to figure out key singatures...not useful for modern music.

it's daunting because there is so much info (much of it redundant) that a clear path to understanding is not presented.

here's my standard cut n paste reply:
---------------------------------------
THEORY PROGRESSION
---------------------------------------
Theory can seem like a quagmire to those who are starting out, and it's often difficult to know just how important a particular aspect of it is. I will say that learning how chords are built from scales is the most important aspect of theory. It is far more useful to understand chord construction than to memorize all those "Scales A and B go with chord X" formulas.

I'd say the logical progression learning music theory is kinda like this:

1.) learn the major scale, and how it's constructed
1.5) learn the intervals of the major scale
2.) learn the minor scale and the dominant scale and how it relates to the major scale (i.e.; its the V and vi mode)
3.) understand how other 4 modes of the major scale are derived (less important to memorize these other modes at first)
4.) Learn how to harmonize the notes of a major and minor scale by building chords / stacking thirds.
5.) Learn to look at common chord progressions as "numerals" (eg, I-IV-V ect) to understand how the chords relate to the song's key.
7.) Learn arppegios/chord tones, and pentatonic scales for major/minor/dominant scales.
8.) dive back into modes for more detailed ideas about what "goes" with what chord.

Bass playing is basically a matter of knowing what to play over various chords. It may seem daunting at first, but my practical experience (bass in pop/rock) has been that I mostly use Major, Minor, and Dominant 7 related bassline patterns, usually based on chord tones and pentatonics. Even if you're playing some guitar oriented riff-rock, each riff is going to imply a chord of some kind.

"BUT HOW DO I APPLY THIS THEORY TO MY PLAYING?"
85%+ of the time, you will be going from root note to root note as the chords change. The trick is learning how to do it with a groove and feel that is stylistically appropriate to the song. The best way to reach stylistic understanding is to learn songs you like and pick them apart to see how the bassline relates to the chords. I cannot emphasize this idea enough: The answer to this common question is to LEARN AND ANALYZE BASS LINES BY THE MASTERS. Once you undertand what Jamerson (for example) did with a particular set of changes, these ideas become added to your tool set, to use, change, blend and create your own voice.

^{I just added several links, mostly wikipedia, to certain steps above. If anybody knows of a better or bass related link to explain the concept indicated,please PM me.)}

It seems like there are only really two areas of theory

1. Scales and modes

2. Rhythms

The last poster was right - you need to have an order to work your way through this stuff.

It seems to me that most bass players don't bother with learning all that much about rhythms actually. Rhythm seems of much less concern than scales and modes.

But for scales and modes, I would learn in this order personally (this is similar to the last guys post, it's just a matter of preference but his approach was really good).

1. Major scale - learn to play it.
2. Make the modes from the major scale - learn how this works, and how it is that you can make seven modes from a seven note scale.
3. Learn the names of the modes, and how each one differs from the major scale.
4. Learn how a chord is constructed in tertiary (or basic, or normal) harmony (by adding successive thirds). Learn what a triad is.
5. Learn how you can make a chord (or triad) from every note of the major scale.
6. Learn how you can name each of these chords after the scale degree (written with a roman numeral) it starts on.

7. Try not to learn 'why' - it's probably not as interesting, more confusing and more ambiguous than 'how'.

That's about as much theory as most people ever use in terms of scales and chords unless they play jazz.

[Raven2k360]

Two books that might be helpful:

The Idiot's Guide to Music Theory -- seems to explain things pretty simply without making you feel like an idiot.

A Creative Approach to Music Fundamentals by William Duckworth. We used the 9th Ed. in my Music Fundamentals class, and it was a pretty straight-forward book with plenty of worksheets and exercises. We only covered like the first 8 chapters, but I picked up on the stuff pretty easily.

[bobknowsbass]

It depends on what you wish to do with music. A casual relationship with playing in bands and gigging really requires not much theory knowledge. Just play the tunes well.
If you want to expand on what you already know and have more of an "intimate" relationship with music, theory can only help you. It started for me when I had a cheap keyboard and I decided to play Orion on it. (you all know it) I learned it by ear and then I said, "cool, now WHY does that work?" The world of theory opened up to me then, not by an outside influence, but an inner curiosity. Trust me it can only help you. No one ever lost a gig because they knew their theory!

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by MrGotBass

Simply put, I'd like to learn more about musical theory, but its all so complex, and I constantly have to keep looking up different words that I am apperently supposed to already know before reading the acticles. Is there any simple guides to theory floating around. I really can't afford a bass teacher...

WAAAAAAAHHHHH! I have to look stuff up and read! WAAAAAAAHHHHH!

Learn one facet of theory and master it before you go onto the next facet. Theory is cumulative, so you need to understand everything else up to the point that you're working. Also, it really does help if you have a teacher. I know you can't get one right now, but it helps a lot to have someone explain everything to you and give you actual examples of how to apply it.

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by afromoose

It seems to me that most bass players don't bother with learning all that much about rhythms actually. Rhythm seems of much less concern than scales and modes.

I have seen this to be fairly true. Scales and modes are easy to talk about technically in English, but to analyze rhythm concisely, you really have to commit to learning rhythm notation. I started in late on my rhythm reading, and I'm no pro by any stretch, but the benefits to my awareness of rhythm have been tremendous.

Originally Posted by mambo4

I have seen this to be fairly true. Scales and modes are easy to talk about technically in English, but to analyze rhythm concisely, you really have to commit to learning rhythm notation. I started in late on my rhythm reading, and I'm no pro by any stretch, but the benefits to my awareness of rhythm have been tremendous.

I agree with that - it is easier to talk about modes and scales. It's ironic that we don't talk about rhythm more, because bass is usually referred to as part of the rhythm section!

It's great that you've been getting so much out of learning rhythms. I found that when I started getting into rhythmic independence learning bell patterns that really helped me. I've since started applying stuff I've learned in percussion in an interesting way by playing a ride pattern (a bit like a cascara or a mozambique) with my two fingers and a clave with my thumb.

I'm still quite a slow reader - if I hear it I can play it straight back, much faster than reading. I know though that reading would really improve how fast I could access new things.

[Stempelloos]

Originally Posted by afromoose

I agree with that - it is easier to talk about modes and scales. It's ironic that we don't talk about rhythm more, because bass is usually referred to as part of the rhythm section!

It's great that you've been getting so much out of learning rhythms. I found that when I started getting into rhythmic independence learning bell patterns that really helped me. I've since started applying stuff I've learned in percussion in an interesting way by playing a ride pattern (a bit like a cascara or a mozambique) with my two fingers and a clave with my thumb.

I'm still quite a slow reader - if I hear it I can play it straight back, much faster than reading. I know though that reading would really improve how fast I could access new things.

Programming rythmboxes helped me quite a bit in understanding rhythms. Also the advice & explanation of a drummer that did a conservatory study, she showed me some study sheets of notes and gave explanation.

[5StringBlues]

[Cy_Miles]

Originally Posted by mambo4

---------------------------------------
THEORY PROGRESSION
---------------------------------------
I'd say the logical progression learning music theory is kinda like this:

1.) learn the major scale, and how it's constructed
1.5) learn the intervals of the major scale
2.) learn the minor scale and the dominant scale and how it relates to the major scale (i.e.; its the V and vi mode)
3.) understand how other 4 modes of the major scale are derived (less important to memorize these other modes at first)
4.) Learn how to harmonize the notes of a major and minor scale by building chords / stacking thirds.
5.) Learn to look at common chord progressions as "numerals" (eg, I-IV-V ect) to understand how the chords relate to the song's key.
7.) Learn arppegios/chord tones, and pentatonic scales for major/minor/dominant scales.
8.) dive back into modes for more detailed ideas about what "goes" with what chord.

The only thing I would change on this list, is I would put an earlier emphasis on 7.) Learn arppegios/chord tones, and pentatonic scales for major/minor/dominant scales.

Because arppegios and major/minor pentatonic scales give the beginning or young musician something to play that can build muscle memory and technique at the same time they learn the fundemental movments of most rock, blues, western, jazz, etc. etc.... And they are fun.

80% or more of what I ever play is an arpegio or something I pulled out of a pentatonic.

And in my nutshell I only use the Major scale as the "measuring stick" so to speak.

[251]

Originally Posted by xzzy

This book is fairly well regarded:

http://www.edly.com/mtfpp.html

Gives you all the musical terminology without using other music terms to define them. Easy to read plain old english.

+1! This is the book you're looking for.

[Chris K]

Agree with Dalkowski: excellent thread.
Theory and practical play should go hand in hand.
What you learn, but don't use, you won't really understand. What you have learned, but don't keep using, you will forget. Just (in my case) like computer programs.
Motivation is important. Let it come from what you like to play - the theory questions will come up automatically. And if they don't, well.... they don't.

[JTE]

My take is...
Me, I'd say the logical progression learning music theory is this:

1.) Learn the major scale, and how it's constructed

2.) Learn how basic chords are built from the major scale- e.g Major is 1,3,5, minor is 1,b3, 5, etc.

3.) Learn how to harmonize the notes of any diatonic major scale by building chords / stacking thirds.

4.) Learn arppegios/chord tones

5.) Learn to look at common chord progressions as "numerals" (eg, I-IV-V ect) to understand how the chords relate to the song's key.

6.) Learn the Natural Minor scale (a/k/a Aeolian mode) and the dominant scale (a/k/a Mixolydian); And learn how these relate to the major scale (i.e.; its the V and vi mode)

7.) Understand how other 4 modes of the major scale are derived (less important
to memorize these other modes at first)

8.) Dive back into modes for more detailed ideas about what "goes" with what chord.


First, get that basic building block of harmony under your control. Own the W W H W W W H formula. Know WHY C# has an E# instead of F natural in it, be able to spell the notes in any major scale without reference to your instrument. It's the start of everything else.

Then learn how to figure out the notes in basic chords. It's really pretty easy once you learn a few formulae, and that'll help you understand the rest. I put this before learning the Aeolian mode/natrual minor and the Mixolydian because it's more useful in the beginning to know the chords than those two scales. And I'd be careful to say the "natural minor" because there're several minor scales.

The learn to harmonize the scale- that's what tells you WHY a ii V I in C is Dmin G7 C, and WHY those three chords define a key center. Learn that before you start messing with them as separate scales. This is a vitally important point! a ii V I defines a key center and the music is more likely to be cohesive if you understand and approach those three chords as one key instead of thinking of them as three disparate entities.

Then the arpeggios. Why? Because just knowing that Amin7 is A C E G without knowing what they sound like and where they are all over the neck still limits your ability to play stuff on the fly.

Now that you know where those ii V I and I IV V stuff comes from, start putting stuff you know into those buckets when it's appropriate. Understand that "Every Breath You Take" is a I vi VI V, just like "Stand By Me". And transpose!!! Take a song you know in A and play it in Eb, then in C#.

After you have the basics of harmony under contrrol, then learning the natural minor scale and the Mixolydian mode (I'd do Mixolydian first however), gets you into modes without them being either the mysterious "secret" they're often portrayed as, nor the be-all and end-all of theory. Once you get to this point you'll SEE the G7 chord in G Mixolydian, and the Amin7 in A Aeolian.

Then after you get used to thinkning of those two modes, the other modes make sense to learn.

Although somewhere around #6 and #7 I'd also go into the harmonization of the Harmonic Minor scale- that'll show why the key of A minor will have an E7 and a G#dim while the A natural minor gives you Emin7 and a G7 (which pulls you to C instead of the Amin chord)...

That's MY take on the natural progression...
I'd also point out that theory is NOT how you have to do it, it's mostly an after-the fact description of what GENERALLY works, and some explanation of WHY, along with the caveat that there's only two rules of music theory that are never violated-
A. If it sounds right, it's right!
B. If it sounds wrong, it's wrong.
(And the understanding that "right" and "wrong" in this context is pretty much open to highly subjective opinions!)

John