A theory question that is going to sound noobish - because it is!

[Grayson C.]

Ok I'm aware that this is a horribly easy question for some of you, but I think that I'd only be hurting myself by not asking it.


Here's a background of what I know

I've been playing bass for a year, started at the end of my senior year of high school. Since then I've been practicing 2-3 hours a day every day pretty much without fail. I know the modes up and down the neck, minor and major scales, pentatonics, triads, arpeggios, easy stuff like that. Now, I seem to have run into a jam. I know these scales and things pretty well, they feel natural to me and I can play them rather fast (I have a technique going on with the first two fingers of my right hand using first the pads and then the nails, letting me play at something like 250 bpm - I don't like shredding at all in a musical sense, but I think it's fun to do for coordination). Where I'm lost is at how to apply of of these things. Specifically, I think I need help with chord progression. I can jam over an Amin for days, but I think after a while it just sounds boring if it doesn't go anywhere. I'm getting tired of blues jams over the same key. I also know time signatures pretty well. Most of what I play is my own original work which I think has the potential to sound really nice - covering songs doesn't seem teach me about bass as much as actually working with theory with original compositions.

So recently I've been reading the idiot's guide to music theory. being the lazy bum I am, I have sort of skipped the part on learning to read - I can't read a lick of music but I do know the basics of treble clef (EGBDF and FACE) from guitar lessons when I was four - that's about all I remember from them, though. So I just read the part about chord progressions and I was introduced to the ideas of 7th, 9th, and eleventh chords - then it struck me (this is the gist of my question, sorry for the rambling): How would I, as a bassist, implement something like this? I obviously can't play a Cmaj7 but is there some specific way to improv appropriately with this chord as opposed to a normal Cmaj? Same with extended range chords like the 9th or 11th.

Any further suggestions and help beyond this is much appreciated. I think one of the biggest problems I'm having is that I don't know what I don't know. I know that I don't know chord progressions but little else. I have no doubt that there is plenty that I haven't even touched on, but that's why I'm coming to you guys for help.

[Wespe]

Take what you know of arpeggios and apply that to chords that aren't necessarily triads. If someone is playing a Cmaj7 chord, the intervals within that chord are 1-3-5-7, or C, E, G, B. If it's a Cmaj9, you would add the ninth (D), if it's Cmaj11, you add the 11th (F), etc. They're just extended arpeggios based on the notes that make up the chord.

[Rayle_Trail]

Transcribe some trumpet players solo's like Clifford Brown or Miles and see how they used their vocabulary of scales, jazz trumpeters tend to improvise in a very coherent way, more so than sax players who can tend to blow and twiddle their fingers (there are always exceptions of course). Once you learn the arpeggios/triads, scales and pentatonics thennnnnnnnnn.... you have to learn how to phrase them musically...
Transcribe a solo and isolate each phrase they play, figure out exactly what there doing over what chords (you may need a teacher to tell you!), take it through a few different keys and then move on to the next phrase, eventually play all the phrases that constitute the whole solo in few different keys, basically this is to internalise the sounds of those phrases so instead of thinking about theory when you improvise your thinking about sounds!

[tedgilley]

Originally Posted by Grayson C.

Ok I'm aware that this is a horribly easy question for some of you, but I think that I'd only be hurting myself by not asking it.


I can jam over an Amin for days, but I think after a while it just sounds boring if it doesn't go anywhere. I'm getting tired of blues jams over the same key. I also know time signatures pretty well. Most of what I play is my own original work which I think has the potential to sound really nice - covering songs doesn't seem teach me about bass as much as actually working with theory with original compositions.

Any further suggestions and help beyond this is much appreciated. I think one of the biggest problems I'm having is that I don't know what I don't know. I know that I don't know chord progressions but little else. I have no doubt that there is plenty that I haven't even touched on, but that's why I'm coming to you guys for help.

I think your trouble is exactly the opposite of what you stated: Covering songs, and playing with other musicians will be a -lot- more valuable to you than sitting with your own compositions and applying theory to them. Your compositions may be great, I'm not saying they aren't ... but all the theory and scale knowledge in the world, without application in a playing situation, are really pretty useless; and that is why you are feeling so bored.

A teacher can help you get out of this rut by showing you how to use what you know of music and the fretboard, and playing with others will help you begin to understand how the bass works with other instruments. In time, you will intuitively use sevenths and ninths (for example) with relative ease because you will understand the context of their use.

[Rudreax]

Learn to read and write standard notation. Then, start transcribing simple solos by jazz players. Analyze them and see how they solo over such chords.

Also, as tedgilley said, get a teacher to help guide you through all this.

[Asher S]

Here are 2 good books that address your question from different angles:

Concepts for Bass Soloing (Chuck Sher, Marc Johnson):
http://www.amazon.com/Concepts-Bass-...3262756&sr=8-1

The Total Jazz Bassist (David Overthrow, Tim Ferguson):
http://www.amazon.com/Total-Jazz-Bas...3262798&sr=1-1

The first book requires a real commitment to work through each exercise, recognizing the chord progressions (charted out in the book), and analyzing what Marc plays (generally transcribed in the book) in the context of the technique he is demonstrating (e.g. incorporating scale fragments, or one or two thematic intervals into a bass line or solo). The second book has an excellent section on walking bass lines, that covers chord changes beyond the 12-bar blues.

I realize the first book is focused on soloing rather than bass lines, but the general idea is similar: to learn how to play melodic lines, not only within the chord progressions, but that also drive the music forward.

I hope that helps.

[Grayson C.]

Originally Posted by tedgilley

I think your trouble is exactly the opposite of what you stated: Covering songs, and playing with other musicians will be a -lot- more valuable to you than sitting with your own compositions and applying theory to them. Your compositions may be great, I'm not saying they aren't ... but all the theory and scale knowledge in the world, without application in a playing situation, are really pretty useless; and that is why you are feeling so bored.

A teacher can help you get out of this rut by showing you how to use what you know of music and the fretboard, and playing with others will help you begin to understand how the bass works with other instruments. In time, you will intuitively use sevenths and ninths (for example) with relative ease because you will understand the context of their use.

You may be correct, but so far my experience has not been as such. Covering songs hasn't given me a lick of help in terms of creativity and being able to mold theory into what I want it to sound like. It just feels like miming movements someone else has done. Perhaps this is just the songs that I've tried learning (examples: Ramble on by led zeppelin, Pigs (3 dif ones) by pink floyd, and not too many more) However, on the subject of covering songs what I find helps me immensely is to take a given chord progression to a famous song (Jolene by Dolly parton is one of the funniest) and create my own bassline to it. This seems far more benificial than playin the notes of someone before me.

Now, obviously you've years more experience than me and I should take you word on things like this - so I probably will end up doing so! Someon ementioned before about covering trumpet work - I think that's a phenominal idea, I'll give it a try.

Also, on my to do list this summer is to become moderately fluent in reading music. It's something I've avoided for too long and is an instrument that will help me immensely in the long run.

edit: On the subject with jamming with other people - most of the musicians I know aren't interested in anything more than strumming over the same three chords or playing a generic 4/4 drum beat. I haven't found anyone yet with musical motivation. On the subject of teachers, I'm afraid that's slightly out of the question only because I move back and forth from college to home. Right now it's the summer so I'mback home, but when I head back to college, we'll see if I can't get someone skilled. I'd love to have a teacher, honestly.

[ultrabass6]

Originally Posted by Grayson C.

So I just read the part about chord progressions and I was introduced to the ideas of 7th, 9th, and eleventh chords - then it struck me (this is the gist of my question, sorry for the rambling): How would I, as a bassist, implement something like this? I obviously can't play a Cmaj7 but is there some specific way to improv appropriately with this chord as opposed to a normal Cmaj? Same with extended range chords like the 9th or 11th.

a Cmaj consists of 1-3-5. a Cmaj7 consists of 1-3-5-maj7. That is the easy explaination. A C11th would consist of 1-3-5-11. It's just a way of coloring the chords. Understand that a ninth in C is a D? I don't hang on these notes but just use them in passing for color. There are people on here that will argue theory all day (Cmaj is not just 1-3-5...etc) but this is the easy explaination.

[Grayson C.]

Cmaj9 and Cmaj11 don't include the 7th?

[ultrabass6]

Cmaj9 and Cmaj11 don't focus on the 7th. If it says C9 they want you to use C (1-3-5) and color with a 9th (d) or 11th (F).

[Deacon_Blues]

Originally Posted by Grayson C.

Cmaj9 and Cmaj11 don't include the 7th?

Cmaj9 contains both the maj7 and the maj9. And both are necessary to give that chord its distinctive sound. If it wouldn't contain the maj7, it would be written as Cadd9.

Cmaj11 (I don't recall ever seeing this) contains the maj7, 9, and 11. Whether you play them all or not is another story. My guess is that you might leave out the 9th easily, which you often do in 11 or 13 dominant chords (e.g. C11 and C13).

If a note must be left out from a chord, the first one picked is usually the perfect fifth.

[Deacon_Blues]

Originally Posted by ultrabass6

Cmaj9 and Cmaj11 don't focus on the 7th. If it says C9 they want you to use C (1-3-5) and color with a 9th (d) or 11th (F).

Sorry no. C9 must contain the minor 7th. Otherwise it's not a C9. Same with C11.

[Grayson C.]

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

Sorry no. C9 must contain the minor 7th. Otherwise it's not a C9. Same with C11.

Then does Cmaj11 contain the 9th as well as the 7th?

[tedgilley]

Originally Posted by Grayson C.

Now, obviously you've years more experience than me and I should take you word on things like this - so I probably will end up doing so! Someon ementioned before about covering trumpet work - I think that's a phenominal idea, I'll give it a try.

I've had about six months training (if you can call it that) on the bass, but that doesn't mean my advice is either good or bad. The important thing is to take what you've learned and -apply it- so that you are actually making music, even on a simple scale, with other musicians, and not just thinking about theory. None of the advice here is bad or wrong ... but perhaps I don't really know what you want to do.

TG

[Deacon_Blues]

Originally Posted by Grayson C.

Then does Cmaj11 contain the 9th as well as the 7th?

I guess it does, but as I've never used that chord and never seen it in notation, I can't say I'm completely sure about it. See one of my posts above too.

Btw, I tried playing that chord and it really doesn't sound good as such. With a raised 11th (#11) it sounds better to my ears.

[JTE]

A. If all you're doing with the cover songs is playing them, they ain't gonna help you much. But, if you ANALYZE what Jones and Waters, et. al. did against the chords, then you'll start to learn something about applying all this stuff.

B. You say you "know" the scales/modes/arpeggios. Now that makes me question you- when I say "know", it means these things, pretty much in order.
1. I know how the scale/arpeggio is built, that is I know the intervals.
2. I know what it sounds like- I can hear the next note in my head before I play it.
3. I know what notes are in it
4. I can physically play it over two octaves ascending and descending.
Most people only think of #4 when they say the "know" a scale. Do you?

C. Learn basic harmony theory- that way you won't be mislead when someone says that a 9th chord does not include the 7. You'll also understand the difference between the chord having the b7 and the bassline not needing it. But you gotta know (see "B" above") the chords!

jte

[Grayson C.]

Originally Posted by JTE

A. If all you're doing with the cover songs is playing them, they ain't gonna help you much. But, if you ANALYZE what Jones and Waters, et. al. did against the chords, then you'll start to learn something about applying all this stuff.

B. You say you "know" the scales/modes/arpeggios. Now that makes me question you- when I say "know", it means these things, pretty much in order.
1. I know how the scale/arpeggio is built, that is I know the intervals.
2. I know what it sounds like- I can hear the next note in my head before I play it.
3. I know what notes are in it
4. I can physically play it over two octaves ascending and descending.
Most people only think of #4 when they say the "know" a scale. Do you?

C. Learn basic harmony theory- that way you won't be mislead when someone says that a 9th chord does not include the 7. You'll also understand the difference between the chord having the b7 and the bassline not needing it. But you gotta know (see "B" above") the chords!

jte

I've taken your advice to heart. And I meet your definition for knowing an arpeggio (etc.), which actually makes me feel quite good . Obviously I know certain things much better than others. Intervals for less common modes, for example, I honestly couldn't tell youfluently, but I'm almost there.

I certainly do NOT know chords, however.

edit: Or harmonic theory - that's something I have absolutely no clue how it works.

[JTE]

Not trying to be facetious, but how can you know arpeggios if you don't know chords or basic harmony? Arpeggios are the chords played one note at a time. So, if you know an Amin7 arpeggio, then you know it's the 1, b3, 5, b7 of the A major scale, you know the notes are A C E G, you know where it is all over the neck.

The basic chordal theory stuff is real easy, it just takes some time. Essentially you should know how the chords come out of the scale by stacking thirds, why the diatonic major scale gives you chords in the order of:
I Maj7
ii min7
iii min7
IV Maj7
V 7
vii min7
vii min7b5

And you should know two ways to determine basic chords. That is, know the intervals (i.e. know that a major triad is a major third with a minor third on top AND that it's the 1, 3, and 5th notes of the scale of the root; that a 7th chord is a major third with two minor thirds stacked on top, and that it's also the 1, 3, 5, b7 of the root, etc.)

Get those things going. Then cop basslines off recordings. Study them to see the arpeggios, chord tones, and scales that created the line.

jte

[Grayson C.]

Originally Posted by JTE

Not trying to be facetious, but how can you know arpeggios if you don't know chords or basic harmony? Arpeggios are the chords played one note at a time. So, if you know an Amin7 arpeggio, then you know it's the 1, b3, 5, b7 of the A major scale, you know the notes are A C E G, you know where it is all over the neck.

The basic chordal theory stuff is real easy, it just takes some time. Essentially you should know how the chords come out of the scale by stacking thirds, why the diatonic major scale gives you chords in the order of:
I Maj7
ii min7
iii min7
IV Maj7
V 7
vii min7
vii min7b5

And you should know two ways to determine basic chords. That is, know the intervals (i.e. know that a major triad is a major third with a minor third on top AND that it's the 1, 3, and 5th notes of the scale of the root; that a 7th chord is a major third with two minor thirds stacked on top, and that it's also the 1, 3, 5, b7 of the root, etc.)

Get those things going. Then cop basslines off recordings. Study them to see the arpeggios, chord tones, and scales that created the line.

jte

Perhaps I should have been more clear. I only meant simple major and minor arpeggios - 1 3 5 8. Beyond that, you are very correct - it requires more chord theory than I have. I feel its mostly an issue of knowing WHAT to do but not why to do it. Which, when it comes down to it, is more important than simply knowing that I should press certain frets.

[JTE]

OK, you're on the right track! This stuff goes togehter, knowing WHAT to do, why it works, and where to put the fingers to use it. It's kind of a stepping stone process where learning a bit more about one area opens up knowledge in another area.

I'd suggest that you prowl through the stickies at the top of the GI page. Here's a link to what I consider the best music theory book out there (unless you want to dig into it as a classic music theorits maybe). http://www.edly.com/mtfpp.html

I love that book because he doesn't assume you play piano, doesn't assume you can read standard notation, and doesn't assume that the only music that makes good examples is western classical music. It's full of diagrams just like I used to make for my students 25 years ago, except his are much more legible and clear.

Study that and you'll clear up a lot of this stuff you already know in spots.

jte