Theory snobs?!

[MarkMcCombs]

Just got thru reading "my week at berklee" thread on this forum; enjoyed it thoroughly and got lots of inspiration from it. I've been studying theory, etc., with a teacher, when I can, for the last 18 months or so, after playing for more than 15 years.

My problem?.........without intending to, there are a lot of comments in these forums from studied bass players that can make others, not so studied, feel inadequate. Again, without meaning to.

I just took a step back and realized...."I've been playing for 15 years or so, have always played what needed to be played, nothing fancy, and never had any complaints, never been fired from a gig, etc., in spite of, until recently, having NO IDEA what a Cminmaj7 chord was and what I needed to do with it". To be sure, we all would do better to know everything we can about our craft, but there's a ton of us out there, getting it done, who have limited knowledge and limited practice time.

What am I saying? I guess, keep your head up and do what you can when you can, and enjoy the craft of making music as much as you can.

I love the part from the aforementioned thread about, in reference to walking bass, "play chord tones and beats 1 & 3 and pretty much whatever you want on beats 2 & 4". While I would add that on beat 4 a half-step above or below the next chord tone is a great addition, this information is freeing, at least to me. Hell, I can play roots and 5ths on beats 1 and 3 and almost fake my way thru walking!! Until I get better......

I guess I just wanted to add this thread as thinking of how much we don't know can possibly get in the way of what we do know, and sort of paralyze us if we're not careful. Another thing, ALWAYS go into a gig with a strong sense of confidence, no doubts. Even if you have to fake it, fake it with confidence!

My .02.....

Mark

[tZer]

Originally Posted by MarkMcCombs

I guess I just wanted to add this thread as thinking of how much we don't know can possibly get in the way of what we do know, and sort of paralyze us if we're not careful. Another thing, ALWAYS go into a gig with a strong sense of confidence, no doubts. Even if you have to fake it, fake it with confidence!

I get where you are coming from, being a bass player who has played for 25 years but only recently decided to finally make a concerted effort to understand some of the theory that I failed to absorb over those years.

What I discovered was that even though I did not know the technical description for what I was doing, I was still 'following the rules' - I just couldn't tell you what rules. I used to 'fake it' through changes in jazz band and sound perfectly fine. I had no idea if I was playing a 5th or a 7th - I knew them as "that one note that always sounds right (the 5th) and that other note that sometimes sound interesting (the 7th)...

Now that I am genuinely interested in understanding theory and what it means to me as a bass player, I enjoy every minute of threads like the one you mention and all the other ones that offer more academic insight into applying music theory.

Finally, on the idea of theory-induced paralysis, which I will also define as "thinking you can't do something because you don't know how to properly identify it by it's clinical name" - I can easily relate to feeling less than smart when hanging with musicians who talk the talk with such ease. I would let that intimidate me some - but usually when it came to playing, no one knew who was the smarty-pants and who was the novice- except the novice (me) - So I decided that I didn't want to be the novice anymore and have been working hard, reading these posts, taking some lessons, reading articles, and more to make myself feel more comfortable in a more academic sense. What I am discovering is that even though I could always get by on my wits, having access to some of the real-deal knowledge does pay off in spades!

[PocketGroove82]

I really enjoy this particular part of the electric side of the forum because people with a genuine interest and understanding of jazz and classical music theory have conversations and debates about the finer points of music theory.
I can only read so many threads about the geddy lee jazz bass before I get bored, and I find it a sad social commentary on our little community that the General Instruction topic has only 3 pages of posts, while the gear based topics have 31. It really shows where the interest of the majority rests...anyways, I guess I am one of the snobs.

So to all the regulars in General Instruction who post thought provoking, educated assistance and responses (you guys know who you are)...I say thanks, and I enjoy your company.

I will say that knowing so much theory can be a curse, if there is a disconnect between your mind, your ears, and your instrument. So if you don't always understand what the theory snobs are talking about, I wouldn't worry...half the time, most of them are wrong anyway!

Really though, it's interesting to me to hear different perspectives on things such as analyzing harmonic progressions or chord scales. It reminds me that there is more than one way to look at everything.

Matt

p.s. I dunno if this post has anything to do with that this thread is about!

[BrandonEssex]

I think that there is an important topic here, that being the one about theory vs practice. You guys have been playing for years, and using your ears to decide what to play. Ultimately, this is the most important aspect of playing music, actually playing it and having a direct link between your ears and your fingers. Having studied and being fluent in written music and theory, I can say this with confidence; A player with no theory is still a player, a producer of music. A theorist with no playing ability is just a theorist, someone who can talk about what others play. Bach didn't follow the rules, he composed what sounded great to him. Others came along and looked at what he did, and said "now there will be rules so that you can compose just like Bach!"
That being said, it's still a valuable skill to be able to communicate quickly and efficiently about music and the rewards are worth the effort. Now, THAT being said, don't discount your or others pre-theory-study efforts, as those experiences will ultimately be the foundation for your understanding, and still provide the direct link, but now, you'll know how to tell somebody else how cool the flat nine sounds on that minor two five!

[GreyBeard]

Knowing theory means that I can tell you in technical terms why your basslines sound so great.

[Gintaras]

Originally Posted by NickyBass

For me, the goal of theory is to liberate, not paralize.

There is a book by Kenny Werner called 'Effortless Mastery' where he talks about how to work with and apply it.

have to agree about the liberation and the book. Just started reading Effortless Mastery and totally engrossed. I played in the 60's and 70's and I was just a play it by the seat of my pants bassist. Started playing again 3 years ago and really got into the theory. What I like about theory is that learning a new concept at a lesson can change everything you know

[SwamiRob]

I really appreciate classical and jazz and stuff, but I've still not really come to a situation where I've not been able to jam to something or write something a bit weird sounding through not knowing theory.

[NickyBass]

I deleted my post above because I wanted to rephrase what I meant.

Really, it isn't the theory that is stifling--it's what you do with it. I am in no way a theory 'buff,' or snob, but I have been studying it for years. Now, it's just a matter of applying it without thinking about it. The more you know, the less you have to think.

So, yes, The goal of theory is to liberate, not paralyze. I highly recommend the Kenny Werner book.

[BillMason]

Originally Posted by tZer

I used to 'fake it' through changes in jazz band and sound perfectly fine. I had no idea if I was playing a 5th or a 7th - I knew them as "that one note that always sounds right (the 5th) and that other note that sometimes sound interesting (the 7th)...

Not to be a theory snob, but it may have sounded good enough for you, but there may have been people in the audience who were wincing. I well remember around 1989 in a jazz performance class trying to play a song, one that I hadn't practiced nearly enough, and didn't know the changes, and it was like 200 bpm, hard bop. I was hitting the roots on 1&3, but couldn't think fast enough to make decisions about what the passing tones should be on 2&4, so just tried to fake it. Obviously it didn't work. The drummer got all pi**ed off at me, and threw his sticks down in disgust and the prof asked me what he** were those scales I was using for the changes.

Theory helps (as does practice!) so you don't have to think about what the notes should be, and so that you don't pi** off the piano player, or the sax player, or the guitar player, who can all tell clearly that you are playing notes that just don't fit.

Yes, there's an undercurrent of snobbery from some insecure people who know theory really well, and there's also an undercurrent of snobbery from those who believe that theory is unnecessary.

I say learn all you can learn and be all you can be, and accept no limitations! It's only you who suffers... and maybe those who have to listen to you or play with you.

Having said that - how much theory did the early jazz greats actually know? Isn't that how we got such wacky "rules" in jazz theory, because the music theory experts are just trying to explain what these cats were doing, and put it in such a way as to teach those of us who just weren't hip enough to get it?

[dvh]

I'm on the same general wavelength here, been playing for years and only in the last year or so have I got into studying and applying theory. As others above have said, I got by fine as an "ear" player, and most of what I was playing was standard blues/classic rock. But I want to get into the jazz stream and understand charts and play with those cats.

It could be the only money I make in retirement...

[Tony G]

Originally Posted by dvh

I'm on the same general wavelength here, been playing for years and only in the last year or so have I got into studying and applying theory. As others above have said, I got by fine as an "ear" player, and most of what I was playing was standard blues/classic rock. But I want to get into the jazz stream and understand charts and play with those cats.

This is right where I am at as well, but add funk as my number one form of music I love to play. I love jazz, jazz fusion, funk/jazz fusion, funk fusion, etc....call it whatever you want. I love music that sounds good to my ears. I have always played by ear, trial and error almost. I've jammed for years with friends, and if I hit a wrong note, it would be archived in my brain and I would know "ok, I now know that doesn't go there". I haven't had a need to this point to really learn theory. I've always played what I thought sounded good, and seem to get by ok. But, I seriously want to learn to explain what I'm playing, or why that wrong note I hit wasn't right, other than saying it doesn't sound right.

[capnsandwich]

I've always compared music theory to math class. You start out at 2+2, learn long division, on to algebra, calculus, geometry, etc. After graduating high school some go to college and learn mathematics at an even higher level. After you graduate you go into the job that you've studied for, or at least you thought. After a few years you realize, "How much of what I learned in college do I actually use in real life?" You don't need to know calculus to balance your check book or to pay bills, but you do need to know it if you're a nuclear engineer.

It's great to know the technical side of music and know what the notes you're playing are called and where to find them on a staff, but in order to play the bass in every day life and in every day gigs it's really not necessary to know the "deep" music theory. Just my .02!!!

[Lorenzini]

Look, regardless of how well-studied players make you feel, there is merit to knowing WHY you are playing something, and how to embellish it to make it sound better. Sure there's your ear, and that's the most important thing, but there's also the important reason WHY you are playing it. That's where theory comes in.

If you have a good grasp of theory you can be a better player. If you don't have a grasp of it, you will never reach a certain level. Especially when playing jazz. Actually, without a good grasp of theory you will never become a good jazz player. Just not happening.

So, the question is, why NOT study theory? Especially when it's stopping you from being able to play with your peers [ref: Cminmaj7].

[Lorenzini]

Originally Posted by capnsandwich

It's great to know the technical side of music and know what the notes you're playing are called and where to find them on a staff, but in order to play the bass in every day life and in every day gigs it's really not necessary to know the "deep" music theory. Just my .02!!!

I'll go further and say it depends on the genre of music you're playing.

My everyday gigs are most likely not your everyday gigs. I always get hired for jazz and funk gigs. One of the main reasons is my ability to read sheet music and play the changes.

[SundanceChile]

Music is a language. Theory is the grammatical aspect. You don't have to have a bachelor's in English to become an amazing poet. You don't need to know theory to become a great musician. But there is no denying that both theory and grammar help fine tune your speaking ability.

My 2 cents.

[lunarpollen]

Knowing a little bit of theory can be helpful. But deep study of it isn't necessarily going to make you make better music. Think of it like cooking... It helps to be familiar with how seasonings and spices etc. taste and how they interact, but it's not necessary to know the chemical properties of those things and the history of their cultivation and how they are manufactured and how they effect the taste receptors and create neurological reactions in people on the molecular level. There are plenty of amazing cooks out there who just know how to combine things and make an amazing feast just by being familiar with how things taste and what works and what doesn't, without needing to know *why*

[lunarpollen]

And there have been great old school jazz musicians who didn't know more than just a tiny bit of theory. Sure, maybe there were certain bands whose leaders demanded that their players need to know how to read charts etc., and so those particular musicians couldn't work for those bands... But those musicians do exist, and sometimes you'd be surprised to find out who they are...

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by lunarpollen

And there have been great old school jazz musicians who didn't know more than just a tiny bit of theory. Sure, maybe there were certain bands whose leaders demanded that their players need to know how to read charts etc., and so those particular musicians couldn't work for those bands... But those musicians do exist, and sometimes you'd be surprised to find out who they are...

I would say the reverse is true and maybe even more so. Many that have studied/absorbed it and just second nature to them. Some don't talk about their background, some just plain forget about that phase of there life. Theory is a communication tool, and organizational tool, and a when used right source of new things to explore.

The trouble is too many look at theory as rules and it isn't it is just a tool. I would say all the untrained or "ear" players do the same thing in how they organize and label different aspects of music, just they are wasting a lot of time reinventing the wheel.

[MarkMyWordsXx]

Cmin maj7 is a C minor chord, with a major 7th added.

fyi, not to sound snobbish. if you dont know what something is, just ask. its never too late to learn

i take theory in college, and the more i play out, the more people i find that have no idea about theory, IMo its not a big deal if you dont know it, but it helps if you do.

thats my stance on the subject.

[dvh]

I hear what you're saying Doc but it seems like it's necessary to go through a "reinventing" phase to come out with it second nature or at least unconcious.

At least for me...