Theory: understanding modes and...

[WorshipBassist]

Okay so I'm really trying to get this basic theory under my belt. Please use all answers and examples in the key of c. so here is a list of questions:

1. Why does the Dorian mode start on the second scale degree? Heck why do any of the modes start on degrees?

2. I have been taught all the modes by the basic exercise of the c major scale, then start on d (Dorian), then e (Phrygian), etc. why do all of these modes not "work" in any major chord?

3. Very basic chords: is C7 and Cmaj7 the same thing? How do you know when to lower or leave the 7th. My bass professor tells me to always lower the seventh (I guess in the context of walking bass) unless told otherwise. Explain this?

[GodinFan]

I'm not going to answer your question about modes, since the only time I think about them is when playing music that is modal in nature. Using modes to relate to standard chord changes is unnecessarily confusing IMO.

C7 is a dominant chord, spelled C-E-G-Bb
Cmaj7 is usually a tonic function seventh, spelled C-E-G-B.

Lowering the 7th all the time is not really a great idea, though you can get away with it quite often based on linear resolution.

[funkybass]

1. Why does the Dorian mode start on the second scale degree? Heck why do any of the modes start on degrees?


Modes are built off each degree of the major scale. Basically modes are just playing through the keys major scale starting on a different degree and playing each not. Example: d Dorian is d e f g a b c, e phygian is e f g a b c d. Etc etc.

2. I have been taught all the modes by the basic exercise of the c major scale, then start on d (Dorian), then e (Phrygian), etc. why do all of these modes not "work" in any major chord?
Not sure I understand the question but if the chords are diatonic to the key you can use any mode over any chord. Example in c you can use g mixolydian over f major if you wanted.

3. Very basic chords: is C7 and Cmaj7 the same thing? How do you know when to lower or leave the 7th. My bass professor tells me to always lower the seventh (I guess in the context of walking bass) unless told otherwise. Explain this?

Cmajor7 is a major chord with a major 7th. It contains c e g b. C7 is a dominate chord and has a flat 7. It has the notes c e g Bb. The chords will tell you what 7th to use. I wouldn't use a Bb 7 th on a major chord.

I'd not worry so much about modes right now and concentrate on chord tones and passing notes.

[fearceol]

Modes have been covered in detail in this thread :

Bassy Bill's Beginners' Basic guide to scales and modes


However, if you dont know the difference between C7 and Cmaj7, then I recommend that you forget about modes for the time being and concentrate on chords and chord tones. You could start here :

http://www.studybass.com/lessons/bas...s-are-primary/

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by WorshipBassist

Okay so I'm really trying to get this basic theory under my belt. Please use all answers and examples in the key of c. so here is a list of questions:

1. Why does the Dorian mode start on the second scale degree? Heck why do any of the modes start on degrees?

2. I have been taught all the modes by the basic exercise of the c major scale, then start on d (Dorian), then e (Phrygian), etc. why do all of these modes not "work" in any major chord?

3. Very basic chords: is C7 and Cmaj7 the same thing? How do you know when to lower or leave the 7th. My bass professor tells me to always lower the seventh (I guess in the context of walking bass) unless told otherwise. Explain this?

At first there was the Major scale (Ionian) which has these intervals: WT-WT-HT-WH-WH-WH and HT. Then to perform new sounds or scales, you start to play a scale with new intervals construction by starting on the other notes of the major scale. Then when you stack the 1,3,5 and/or seventh notes of each scales you get a 3 or 4 parts chords from it. Each ones has its own function in the scale (I-II-III...etc). But you get the same kind of chords like the major triad is built on the 1,4 and 5 degrees and the minor triads are built on the 2,3 and 6 degrees. Even if these chords have the same sounds, they don't have the same scale construction except for the triad chord and the 4 parts chords. And this is why to stay diatonic to a key center, it is important to recognize the functions of the chords that share the same kind of name like xMaj7 or Xmin7 as an example.

i hope it makes sense, it does to me ;-)

[WorshipBassist]

Thanks guys! Next questions: how can a key be major or minor? What happens to the modes in minor keys? How do you know the key is minor based on the key signature?

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by WorshipBassist

Thanks guys! Next questions: how can a key be major or minor? What happens to the modes in minor keys? How do you know the key is minor based on the key signature?

Good question. A key signature tells you two things, 1) the major key and that major key's relative minor key.
Notice the inside loop, that is the relative minor keys.

2) Both have the same notes and the same chords, i.e. C major has the C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C notes and Am has those same notes. Thus when you make chords from those notes you end up with the same chords for each of them, i.e. C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim for the key of C major and then Am, Bdim, C, Dm, Em, F, G same chords yes in a different order - Am is now the tonic chord in the key of Am and Em is the dominant chord. Same chords, but, with Am now the tonic or tonal center you hear minor.


Lets get that same note thing under control before we go any farther. Look at the C major scale's notes and compare them with the Am scale's notes.

Major Scale Chart
C D E F G A B...............Notice the C scale has no Sharps
G A B C D E F#.............and the G scale has one, the F#
D E F# G A B C#...........and the D scale keeps the F# and
A B C# D E F# G#.........adds the C#. Then the A scale keeps
E F# G# A B C# D#.......everything and adds the G#. See how
B C# D# E F# G# A#.....it builds on it's self.
F# G# A# B C# D# E#
C# D# E# F# G# A# B#
F G A Bb C D E.............Look what happens with the flat scales
Bb C D Eb F G A...........F has one the Bb, then the Bb scale keeps
Eb F G Ab Bb C D.........it's self and adds the the Eb. Same thing
Ab Bb C Db Eb F G.......the sharp scales did...
Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F
Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb
Memory pegs:
See God Destroy All Earth By F#irey C#haos. Order of the scales with sharps.
Fat cats go down alleys eating birds. Order of the sharps.
Farmer brown eats apple dumplings greasily cooked. Order of the scales with flats.
The key signature is showing three sharps. What scale has three sharps? C has none, G has one, D has two, A has three. Which sharps? Fat = F#, Cat = C# and Go = G# so the A major scale has three sharps, F#, C# and G#.

Natural Minor Scale Chart
A B C D E F G ................Notice how the 6th column of the
E F# G A B C D................Major scale becomes the 1st column
B C# D E F# G A..............in the minor scale and how the 7th
F# G# A B C# D E............column of the Major scale is now the
C# D# E F# G# A B..........2nd column in the minor scale. And
G# A# B C# D# E F#........yep, the 1st column in the Major scale
D# E# F# G# A# B C#......is now the 3rd column, etc. etc.
A# B# C# D# E# F# G#....Ask your self why? Hint, think relative minor.
D E F G A Bb C
G A Bb C D Eb F
C D Eb F G Ab Bb
F G Ab Bb C Db Eb
Bb C Db Eb F Gb Ab
Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb Db
Ab Bb Cb Db Eb Fb Gb

How do you tell if the song is to be major or minor? You look at the chords being used. If the chord progression revolves around the major chords - C, F & G the song is in C major. If the chords revolve around the Am, Dm Em the song is being played in the key of Am,

Now if we took the chords out to four note chords instead of just triads then we get that Cmaj7 for example.

C Triads = C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am Bdim
C 4 note = Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7, Bm7b5.

The Cmaj7 is the I or tonic chord and the G7 is the dominant seventh or dominant chord. There is a difference in the sevenths and the other posts have already pointed out the difference. Your instructor was just trying to keep it simple for you. Plenty of time for the nitty gritty later. As to modes, plenty of time later for all that. You will just waste a lot of time trying to get your head around modes. Modes involve melodic phrasing and that normally falls to the solo instrument - yes you can do modes on your bass, question is why and when?. From your name; WorshipBassist - the bass will not be playing modes in a praise band, or at least none of the praise bands I know of. The vocalist, lead electric guitar or the keyboard will be doing the solos. Thus if any modes are needed they will do them. Your job will be to lay down the beat and call attention to the chord changes. That is best done with chord tones played one note at a time.

Good luck, eat this elephant one bite at a time.

[WorshipBassist]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Good question. A key signature tells you two things, 1) the major key and that major key's relative minor key.
Notice the inside loop, that is the relative minor keys.

2) Both have the same notes and the same chords, i.e. C major has the C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C notes and Am has those same notes. Thus when you make chords from those notes you end up with the same chords for each of them, i.e. C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim for the key of C major and then Am, Bdim, C, Dm, Em, F, G same chords yes in a different order - Am is now the tonic chord in the key of Am and Em is the dominant chord. Same chords, but, with Am now the tonic or tonal center you hear minor.

Lets get that same note thing under control before we go any farther. Look at the C major scale's notes and compare them with the Am scale's notes.

How do you tell if the song is to be major or minor? You look at the chords being used. If the chord progression revolves around the major chords - C, F & G the song is in C major. If the chords revolve around the Am, Dm Em the song is being played in the key of Am,

Now if we took the chords out to four note chords instead of just triads then we get that Cmaj7 for example.

C Triads = C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am Bdim
C 4 note = Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7, Bm7b5.

The Cmaj7 is the I or tonic chord and the G7 is the dominant seventh or dominant chord. There is a difference in the sevenths and the other posts have already pointed out the difference. Your instructor was just trying to keep it simple for you. Plenty of time for the nitty gritty later. As to modes, plenty of time later for all that. You will just waste a lot of time trying to get your head around modes. Modes involve melodic phrasing and that normally falls to the solo instrument - yes you can do modes on your bass, question is why?. From your name; WorshipBassist - the bass will not be playing modes in a praise band, or at least none of the praise bands I know of. The vocalist, lead electric guitar or the keyboard will be doing the solos. Thus if any modes are needed they will do them. Your job will be to lay down the beat and call attention to the chord changes. That is best done with chord tones played one note at a time.

Good luck, eat this elephant one bite at a time.

Hoooooly crap. Thanks.

[JTE]

Dorian mode doesn't really start on the second note of the diatonic major scale. Yes, it's the same notes, but that's the most useless and confusing way to learn about modes. Just like the diatonic major scale, Dorian mode is a SOUND. Instead of being W W H W W W H, it's W H W W W H W. So learning Dorian (and any other mode) is just like learning the diatonic major scale.

Except that REALLY learning the diatonic major scale, and learning about harmonizing it, and learning how chords work together is MUCH more useful for most playing applications than modes. I suggest that if you do NOT know the following, to ignore modal theory for until you do fully understand this...

A. How to build the diatonic major scale (W W H W W W H) in ANY key- both in your head and on the instrument. This also includes understanding the correct enharmonics, i.e. why the key of A has a G# and not an Ab (emphasis on UNDERSTANDING, not just "knowing"

B. How to figure out how to physically play the diatonic major scale over at least two octaves in all 12 keys, ascending and descending.

C. How to harmonize the major scale (to the 7th chords, four notes).

D. How to play the arpeggios of each of the seven different chords in all 12 keys over at least two octaves.

E. Understand the Roman numeral conventions and what things like "ii V I" mean.

F. Understand why the ii V is so common and why it DEFINES a key center.

The two fundamental problems with most expositions of modes is first that they continually reference the major scale (like telling you Dorian is the major scale played from 2 to 2). That totally obscures the fact that they're really different sounds, not a modified major scale. The second problem is the totally useless and annoying complicated trash that tells you "Use Dorian for the ii chord and Mixolydian for the V chord". That thinking totally obliterates the key point of chordal music, which is that the chords are RELATED. ii V means that you're firmly in the key of the tonic, and there's simply no reason to think in different modes. If you fully and truly understand the chords, you'll instantly see that (using the key of C for example) that Dmin7 to G7 to C is ALL in the C scale and your target notes are D F A C, then G B D F, then C E G. No reason to alter your mental approach to thinking of each chord as a separate entity.

John

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by JTE

Dorian mode doesn't really start on the second note of the diatonic major scale. Yes, it's the same notes, but that's the most useless and confusing way to learn about modes.
John

I cannot believe a grown up like you just said something like that. This is sooooo confusing and USELESS. I can't even think for any reason to say something like that.

Thanks a lot to you. You just confuse even more someone seeking for answers.

merry xmas to you anyway.

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by Groove Master

I cannot believe a grown up like you just said something like that. This is sooooo confusing and USELESS. I can't even think for any reason to say something like that.

Thanks a lot to you. You just confuse even more someone seeking for answers.

merry xmas to you anyway.

Confusing as it is, it's the truth and you need to hear it. Dorian mode is constructed the same way a major scale, 2nd degree to 2nd degree, is - but it is NOT the same thing as a major scale played 2nd degree to 2nd degree. It is its own scale, with its own sound. The sooner someone understands this, the better off they will be.

[WorshipBassist]

Originally Posted by Pacman

Confusing as it is, it's the truth and you need to hear it. Dorian mode is constructed the same way a major scale, 2nd degree to 2nd degree, is - but it is NOT the same thing as a major scale played 2nd degree to 2nd degree. It is its own scale, with its own sound. The sooner someone understands this, the better off they will be.

I will make sure to learn them through the excessive and memorize that they are in fact different. Thank you.

[BASSDROID]

Originally Posted by Pacman

Confusing as it is, it's the truth and you need to hear it. Dorian mode is constructed the same way a major scale, 2nd degree to 2nd degree, is - but it is NOT the same thing as a major scale played 2nd degree to 2nd degree. It is its own scale, with its own sound. The sooner someone understands this, the better off they will be.

Word.

Originally Posted by funkybass

3. Very basic chords: is C7 and Cmaj7 the same thing? How do you know when to lower or leave the 7th. My bass professor tells me to always lower the seventh (I guess in the context of walking bass) unless told otherwise. Explain this?

And since we're talking sounds, a dominant chord with a flatted 7th like C7 usually implies impending movement to another chord (tension), while a maj7 generally implies harmonic stability (release). Mind you, this does not mean that movement/stability is a required outcome...just implied.

[Groove Master]

Originally Posted by Pacman

Confusing as it is, it's the truth and you need to hear it. Dorian mode is constructed the same way a major scale, 2nd degree to 2nd degree, is - but it is NOT the same thing as a major scale played 2nd degree to 2nd degree. It is its own scale, with its own sound. The sooner someone understands this, the better off they will be.

I cannot believe this!!!

Pacman, what is the difference between what I said about Dorian being the second mode built on the major scale AND FUNCTIONNING as a second degree in a major tonality and what you are saying???
The Dorian mode is the 2nd mode of the major scale because this is where it comes from!!!!! Not very complicated.
What you are try to explain is just like in this holy night trying to explain to a kid how a virgin gave birth ! ;-)

Merry Xmas.

[FretlessMainly]

The direction and tone of the discussion of modes on this forum is indeed rather disappointing. Modes are complicated to the learner because they are introduced far too early and with a seeming emphasis that is typically never realized in one's musical journey.

Yet, they are not terribly complicated if one's basic understanding of diatonic theory is translated to the theory of tonality. D dorian is a tonality just like C Major might be or D natural minor might be. The difference between D dorian and D natural minor is that D dorian is derived from the C Major scale as the second degree (D E F G A B C), whereas D natural minor is derived from the F Major scale as the sixth degree ( D E F G A Bb C).

So, the difference between D dorian and D natural minor as a tonality is the note B natural in the former and Bb in the latter. While it may not be everyone's cup of tea, one can play the C Major scale over D dorian and the F Major scale over D natural minor and achieve the proper effect and note selection - it's all a question of where you choose to start and stop your lines.

D dorian can also be thought of as the second chord in C Major (I know this will bristle some) - this is how I first grapsed the modal concept. Try playing a simple II V I in C Major. But, instead of a measure of Dmin7 a measure of G7 and a measure of C Major 7, play each chord with your band improvising for ten minutes. Do you not then have 10 minutes of D Dorian, 10 minutes of G Mixolydian and 10 minutes of C ionian or C Maj?

[sammyp]

modes are tough to hear without jams or tunes that bring them out ....if you're just sitting around playing them on your bass in order per key - C major, D dorian, E phrygian ..they tend to all sound like the same thing ...a C major scale!!! modes are about changing the home base or home key of a jam or tune.

IE .......Pink Floyd Another Brick in the Wall is a D Dorian jam ....Gilmor on lead guitar pretty much sticks to a d minor pentatonic scale but this is a tune that uses C major scale notes with D minor as it's home base = dorian!

[onlyclave]

Man, if you don't know your modes you're a poser.

How many times a month does this thread still come up?

[champbassist]

Originally Posted by Groove Master

I cannot believe this!!!

Pacman, what is the difference between what I said about Dorian being the second mode built on the major scale AND FUNCTIONNING as a second degree in a major tonality and what you are saying???
The Dorian mode is the 2nd mode of the major scale because this is where it comes from!!!!! Not very complicated.
What you are try to explain is just like in this holy night trying to explain to a kid how a virgin gave birth ! ;-)

Merry Xmas.

This is a direct statement from Joe Satriani, as written by him in an article, that might clear the matter up:

Though thinking of a mode as being the same as some other major scale is a very useful learning device, it is only when one fully understands and internalizes the sound of each mode's intervallic structure that one will master the modal concept.

When learning the seven fundamental modes, it definitely helps to think of each mode as simply being a different orientation of its parent major scale. Ultimately, however, it's better to break away from this relative or associative way of thinking and look at each individual mode as being its own harmonic entity.

To convey the sound of a mode to the listener, it's not enough to just play the notes in a particular position on the fretboard; the mode's root note or tonal center (the first note of the mode) must be clearly established in the listener's ear. For example, if you're improvising in the B Phrygian mode (B C D E F# G A), the notes need to be heard in the context of a B tonal center. One way to ensure that you're conveying the intended B Phrygian modality is to play the melody notes over a B bass note or some kind of B chord that contains notes that fall within the mode, such as B5, Bm, Bm7, Bsus4, B7sus4 or B7b9sus4.

In terms of modal study, the modes only have meaning when they're addressed and understood as entities unto themselves, not as permutations of any "parent" scale. Whatever the root note of a particular mode may be - for example, B in the B Phrygian mode - that root note must be made clear to the listener in order for the unique harmonic texture of a given mode to be experienced by the listener. It is only when a mode is heard against a particular root note or tonal center that its quality can be understood.

Another thing that helps to establish a mode's tonal center is to emphasize the root note in the melody you're composing or improvising. This can be particularly challenging if there's no accompaniment. In the example given above, the musical color of B Phrygian would need to be clearly communicated to the listener to avoid any harmonic ambiguity. The most important note would be B, the root note, and all of the other notes in the mode should surround and relate to that note. If you were to forever rely on the musical crutch of thinking "G major", you'd prevent yourself from truly expressing yourself in a musically convincing and artistic way in the B Phrygian mode.

The best way to really get to know the structure and sound of all seven fundamental modes is to compare them back-to-back in the same (or parallel) key, beginning each mode on the same root note (G Ionian, then G Dorian, then G Phrygian, etc.). By playing and listening to the different modes this way, as opposed to practicing them only in their theoretically relative tonal centers (G Ionian, then A Dorian, then B Phrygian, etc.), one can easily analyze and appreciate the differences and similarities in their intervallic structures and harmonic colors.

It will take a dedicated effort to learn the modes inside out. But learning them is an essential rite of passage for any serious player, so set aside time every day to master them.

To the OP, you might want to take a look at this thread:

Music Theory Book - Free Download

It provides a link to a free ebook, recommended by Bassybill. I think it really does clear up a lot of stuff about modes.

It's high time we got a sticky regarding modes, I'd say.

[96tbird]

I played at a Christmas concert Friday and chatted with a 17 year old cellist/bassist and he had never heard of modes!? He slayed his cello solo though, very talented kid.

[Groove Master]

@champbassist

Good post about the subject. Don't forget that Satriani is talking about improvisation over a modal vamp mainly.

For us, bass players it is imperative that we understand the relationship of chord symbol and it functions in a chord progression or in a key center.

I won't go further here because.......nevermind. LOL


Happy Boxing day LOL