Is there too much information available?

NickyBass · #1 05-14-2009, 05:52 AM

Is the internet a hinderance to the musical growth of young players? Anything that they want to know is out there. Some things are worth 'researching,' and I'm a big supporter of learning theory. However, I feel that trial and error is also a great way to learn. It may take longer to get to the point, but in the process, one can learn alot more than what they sought out.

It is so easy to get online and find music for almost any tune. Instead of being forced to learn by ear, people can now just go online and download a 'tab.'

If they want to learn 'jazz,' they can go online and get a few 'tips' from people who probably aren't qualified to teach, and run off with this false 'knowledge.'

I've seen so many bad Youtube 'lessons' and there is just so many things wrong with them.

What say you?

DudeistMonk · #2 05-14-2009, 06:45 AM

Agreed...I stared playing in 2001 (the beginnings of the internet as we know it) despite hours and hours of researching theory, learning songs (always tab and sheet never ear), reading tips ext. (this was pre-youtube and I remember having a log in here and asking about how to use modes and just being totally confused by the answer) I had no clue what I was doing until I finally sucked it up and started taking lessons with a good instructor. In retrospect if I had 5 good lessons on the basics of music theory and bass's roll in music I would have been able to get something out of the net and sift through the BS.

There are many sites/lessons that would have proven handy...The key would have been knowing that then.

Ie: studybass.com or teoria.com

pointbass · #3 05-14-2009, 06:55 AM

I don't think there is ever too much information available, but it does have a tendancy to make people very lazy. In addition to the points you made, a classic example is in making gear decisions.

Instead of actually trying different equipment/instruments and seeing what works best for the individual, people come onto the 'net to find out "what bass should I buy". Hey, just because I happen to like Yamaha's, that doesn't mean you will, too. But every day we see/read people here making purchase decisions based on some internet advice, with no practical hands-on experience with the gear.

And a lot of the YouTube wank-fest videos are giving a false impression to many young players. Instead of developing musical skills they are spending time copy licks and mimicing what they see on line. It's surprising to me how many players can blaze through 16th and 32nd note runs but can not play through a basic chord change. Someone recently posted a YouTube vid of a guy doing just that kind of wankery ... lots of chops, showing all sorts of technique, but nearly zero groove or feeling. As technical as the guy might be, he'd likely be a disaster in a band setting.

bluesbass99 · #4 05-14-2009, 07:15 AM

Very interesting subject. I started playing bass in the mid-60's when very little resources were available. My idea of playing the bass simply consisted of trying to drop the needle on the record at the location of the riff I was trying to learn. I was simply an "ear-trained" player with no formal knowledge of chord construction or theory.

The bass was put away for many years until I decided to resume playing it again a couple of years ago. I was amazed at the resources that were now at my disposal. The tools available today were non-existent in the 60's. True, it does tempt one to take the easy road and learn to emulate what one sees/hears. But, if a person decided to learn to play the bass, I would sggest the following:
1) Learn basic chord theory. Know what the differences between major, minor, dominant, augmented chords.
2) Learn to read music. It was surprisingly easy. I am not a fluent reader, but I can get by.
3) Listen to the songs. After you learn the song, spend some time to deconstruct the song and you will notice the rules of 1) above.
4) Be a human juke box. Learn as many songs as you can. Open up your influences.
5) Be careful of tabs. There are so many poor tabs out there. I have run across several good tabs, but you are better off downloading the chords and using your ears and theory to develop the bass line.

The above may not work for everyone, and IMHO I wish I knew then what I know now.

BassChuck · #5 05-14-2009, 08:51 AM

This is one of the biggest and rarely addressed problems in modern culture. There is no problem getting information. Getting it in the sequence that you need and being sure the information is correct are the biggest challenges to anyone learning via the internet. The hands on experience of a real live teacher is still important... find people you can trust and check with them from time to time and when things seem a little 'fishy'.

lowb1970 · #6 05-14-2009, 09:03 AM

Great subject and question. IMO I believe there are good and bad points to the internet for learning any musical instrument. On the good side there is no end to the music you can listen to now without having to go to your friends house or buy it at the store for just one or two songs. You can read articles on your favorite players...ect. I do believe there may be too much information on the web that isn't truly accurate and "could" lead a person starting out down the wrong path. As already stated if you get a good foundation in your playing (teacher/theory) then you are more able to sift through all the nonsense that is out there on the web.

On a side note, it is entirely possible to get so caught up in researching things online that before you know it you're lost in the blackhole of the internet and not practicing. This can surely be a hindrance to progress on the bass.

Bassist4Life · #7 05-14-2009, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickyBass

Is the internet a hinderance to the musical growth of young players? Anything that they want to know is out there. Some things are worth 'researching,' and I'm a big supporter of learning theory. However, I feel that trial and error is also a great way to learn. It may take longer to get to the point, but in the process, one can learn alot more than what they sought out.

I think you make a really good point. I haven't really thought about it like that before...

I think the problem is that there is too much bad information out there. Once you sit down to play along with songs, you'll soon realize that a lot of those chord sheets available on the internet are wrong.

Playing with other people and in bands puts all of that head knowledge to the test. It's relatively easy to hear if someone truly understands what they're doing by the way they play with other musicians. These players will hopefully figure out what works and what does not work.

I would say to all the bedroom players out there, find some musicians you enjoy spending time with and start playing songs together.

It's fun and it's real.

Peace,
Joe

two fingers · #8 05-14-2009, 09:20 AM

Good question!!!!!!! Nice post. I think you have a point (to a point). I agree that there is a lot of info out there and it can make things a little "too easy". I learned from the radio more than anything. I would listen to the classic rock station and when a song came on that I liked, I would try to be playing it by the end of the song (talk about a pop quiz). But I think a lot of the problem these days is that parents RELY on that sea of information to keep their kids occupied. Ive been thinking about this a lot lately with my first baby on the way. My brother's kids are glued to either a TV or a computer until they shut the power off to make them go to bed. I refuse to let that be the case with my kids. I will support them when they want to try something new, but I will also insist that they take a somewhat "hands on" approach to trying new things. How does this relate to your topic? As my brother's kids are growing older, they will turn to the computer when they want to know something, or try something new. My kids will be explorers! There are people who learn things, and there are people who DO things. The more of a "hands on" life you live, the more you are able to cut through the crap. I'm not saying by any means that I plan on keeping my kids away from the computer. That's kind of impossible these days. But I want them to learn by DOING as much as they learn by reading on the internet. Jump in! Try things! I'm gonna get off this computer now and go do something. Cheers.

PRUNEFACE · #9 05-14-2009, 09:45 AM

I think the internet is actually helpful, it makes the idea of being a bass/guitar/whatever player more realistic. You actually see and hear from people that actually play the instrument making it seem more accessible and possible. People in those tiny, middle-of-nowhere towns often have not a single bass player and have to learn from youtube lessons. These people were, before the internet, way less likely to pick up the bass.
I was blessed with a great instructor with great talent a bit over a year ago and I believe this is the ideal way to learn.
I think the internet is a great tool if you have a solid foundation (a teacher) to bounce some of this stuff off of.

I don't think there is too much information. I think there is too little (good) information.

derekd · #10 05-14-2009, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BassChuck

This is one of the biggest and rarely addressed problems in modern culture. There is no problem getting information. Getting it in the sequence that you need and being sure the information is correct are the biggest challenges to anyone learning via the internet. The hands on experience of a real live teacher is still important... find people you can trust and check with them from time to time and when things seem a little 'fishy'.

I think this is my answer too. With guitar and bass, unless you are studying classical, there aren't agreed upon leveled studies. So what I see in the teaching I do (guitar mostly, some entry level bass) is players who come in with a shotgun approach that is real hit and miss.

I wind up filling in a bunch of holes in the beginning to help them get to where they want to be. The other issue I find, is with the HUGE amount of info, it is easy to get paralyzed by it all. What to hit next?

Fergie Fulton · #11 05-14-2009, 02:00 PM

One of the problems with information is the control of it, and as has been said the sequence of it. The internet now brings into the house lots of information and mis-information. By mis-information i mean personal opinion or experience being offered as a fact.

When i was studing music all i had to go by was what my teacher taught me and the books i was given to compliment the teaching.
Tutors would work very close with each other and my main teacher always had the final word on what i should be taught.

If i asked another tutor about a certain point the reply was "see your teacher". This ensured that the information i got was in order, relevent, and built on what i had already learned. It also kept my teacher informed of what i knew and did not know so she never got away from me, and i never got away from her.
If.. say.. i saw or heard something i wanted information on, i would be told to "hold that thought" as it will be touched apon when we do this or that subject or lesson.

My teachers were of the belief that knowledge is there to be shared, it is worthless if it is not shared, it means nothing if you do not pass it on.
And there is part of the modern problems of teaching and learning... keeping the information ordered, relevent, and being able to build apon. There are so many tools and information available that students can get out of sequence in their education, by things like technique, preformance, equipment, etc.

I suppose i was lucky as when i studied over 35 years ago, there was what i was told and that was it. When i first heard Stanley Clarke it was on a record, it was years before i saw him play and that was a small piece on the TV. That was it i had 5 mins to watch and learn, no DVD recorders, no VCR recorders back then. I had to make notes with a pad a pen to refer to later. Access to outside sources were practically nil, you had to use you ears and what you knew to get by, and that was trial and error.

Is it better or worse? I would have to say better, if you have a strong sense of how to order it, absorb it and keep it relevent.

capnsandwich · #12 05-14-2009, 02:09 PM

It really depends on what information is what you call "good information." There's never enough "good Information" but there's more than enough short cuts and what-not being taught. The key to learning correctly is to know exactly what to learn and what not to. That's where the student will need a trained teacher. Like you said, anyone can get on youtube and make a video but not everyone can sit down and teach you modes or how to read music. Anyone can teach you tricks but it takes training to train correctly. No one's going to learn theory overnight. Patience is another key to learning correctly but we all know that the internet is not known for patience. That's why there's high speed, broadband, etc.

Jazzdogg · #13 05-14-2009, 04:14 PM

There certainly seems to be a lot of information available (a lot of it incorrrect); enough for a lot of kids and rank amateurs to speak/type as though they know what they're talking about; as cold as this may sound, IME, too many of 'em are bedroom wankers and blowhards with little or no real world experience.

Anyone remember the bar scene from "Good Will Hunting?" Parroting what you've read is definitely no substitute for genuine knowledge or experience.

PRUNEFACE · #14 05-14-2009, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzdogg

There certainly seems to be a lot of information available (a lot of it incorrrect); enough for a lot of kids and rank amateurs to speak/type as though they know what they're talking about; as cold as this may sound, IME, too many of 'em are bedroom wankers and blowhards with little or no real world experience.

Anyone remember the bar scene from "Good Will Hunting?" Parroting what you've read is definitely no substitute for genuine knowledge or experience.

Unfortunately our doctors cannot "experience" how to learn to do surgery on a live patient. Knowledge is knowledge no matter how it is acquired.
Having that knowledge doesn't make you a good teacher. That is our problem.

fdeck · #15 05-14-2009, 08:05 PM

I love the wealth of information that's available on the Internet, and I wouldn't give it up for anything. Sure, the information is of varying quality and reliability, and you have to learn how to use it. But it was that way even before the invention of the printing press.

Something to think about is that there have been "information explosions" in the past, in which knowledge was generated and shared without any real way of sorting the good from the bad, and no official arbiter of truth to approve and organize the knowledge. I can think of New Orleans, Chicago, and NYC, during the golden age of jazz.

Stumbo · #16 05-14-2009, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickyBass

... I feel that trial and error is also a great way to learn.

Yeah, and 10,000 monkeys plunking away at a keyboard for 10,000 years will eventually type the bible.

Don't have time to wait.

NickyBass · #17 05-15-2009, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stumbo

Yeah, and 10,000 monkeys plunking away at a keyboard for 10,000 years will eventually type the bible.

Don't have time to wait.

Yeah, but what if in the meantime, those same monkeys wrote War and Peace, Moby Dick and Fear and Loathing?

Chebass88 · #18 05-15-2009, 09:48 AM

I don't think there is too much information. What is lacking is a decent classification system for that information. TB is a great example - folks range from pre-beginners to professionals on bass, from middle-school to Ph.D. level of education, and a wide range of economic wealth. Once you gain familiarity with any subject, you gain a BS detector. You are able to recognize and separate real information from wrong information or mere opinions as well as deciding the quality of that information and applicability to your own use.

Having a teacher helps you to learn how to use that BS detector.

ian

Orph · #19 05-15-2009, 06:45 PM

I'm struggling with this right now, actually, as I've jsut started playing the bass. It's a tough job sifting through all the ********. Tabs are great for one reason: Doing all the theory stuff really isn't that fun, and so knowing how to play a couple of songs really pulls one through some of the monotony (agreed, playing by ear might be better, but it's frustrating work trying to do that among all the other stuff).

I found a great course which I'm betting will give me alot in the end, once I'm through reading and rehearsing modes and such.

That being said: I love being able to access information on the internet. Being a curious fella, and I'm always absorbing information in one way or another, and I'm a firm believer in building on theory.

EgoBlood3 · #20 05-15-2009, 07:56 PM

I think that a lot of the time there's too much information offered in the wrong order and because of this people never backtrack to learn the fundamentals. A bassist may learn chords, but then have no idea about intervals, and never learn...which is fine I guess if they're still manage to get by but to me the basics are often times more worthwhile than the advanced stuff.