Which of these ways should I learn my scales for each of the keys?

[Hubes]

Method 1: Learn each of the most common scale patterns (major, minor, pentatonics, blues etc) and simply translate them across the fretboard for each different key.

Method 2: Learn the locations of all the notes, and what notes to play in which keys, and simply play what notes belong in the given key wherever they are convenient to me on the fretboard, and let the patterns "fall into place" in muscle memory so to speak.

I already know what all the notes on the fretboard are - its just that past fret 7 I have to think about it for a second-its not natural. I also know what notes make up each major (and thus relative minor) keys on the right half of the circle of fifths.

It seems to me like it would be easier to know what note I've got to play, and know every location of that note on the board than to learn 5+ types of scales plus all the modal variations.

I guess what I want to know is: Advanced bass players - when you are playing a song, do you consciously implement scale patterns into your playing to figure out where the next note is, or do you just know what notes fit the key and where to find them?

For example, (still for experienced guys) say your're going from playing a riff on the 9th-12th fret range and want to walk it down an octave or two to the 2nd-5th fret range. Do you keep track of what mode of what scale of what key you are in and trace the patterns down? Or do you just know what notes you need, and where to find them without a pattern?

I just feel like it would be a waste of time to learn all of those scale patterns if eventually I'll just be able to pick out notes anywhere I find them to be convenient. Any ideas?

[Papa Dangerous]

I think you need a little bit of everything, but only in such a way that you do not get overloaded.

First, the best thing to do is to learn the scale patterns from a theoretical sense. For example, know why a Major scale is a major scale (I know this is vague, but it can be simple)

Look at the Major scale and natural minor scale. First see the similarities.

For example: C major and C Minor
C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C

The first, second, fourth, and fifth (and of course octave) are the same.
The Third, Sixth, and seventh are different.

That is what gives the Major scale its sound, and the minor scale its sound.

Now look at the patterns that form these:
Major: W, W, H, W, W, W, H
Minor: W, H, W, W, H, W, W
Notice that each scale has 5 whole steps, and 2 half steps.
*To easily remember this, and reference it, just think of the C major scale (all natural (no sharps or flats) tones from C to C
And minor is all natural tones from A to A
*Also, if you do not know what I mean by this, I have made a previous thread that explains a bunch of stuff regarding theory in terms of chords, scales, and intervals.

Once you understand that, then learn the patterns on the fret board. Since the strings are tuned by 4ths/5ths then all the patterns are going to remain constant.

A trick to do would be to start on fret 1, and work as far down the neck as you can by consecutive scale tones.

So try:
E String: Frets 1,3,4 (slide to) 6. A string 3,4,6, (slide to) 8

You completed the whole F minor scale on two strings and made it down to the 8th fret. Try and continue to work around with that. Any question, let me know because I am typing this in a rush

[Hubes]

I appreciate you taking the time to post this. However, I should clarify - I've taught myself most of the theory. I know my keys, intervals, scales etc. pretty well. I have the basic major scale pattern and minor pentatonic scale pattern memorized on bass (Ionian modes) but thats about it.

What I'm trying to figure out is if it will be more beneficial to:

A)Learn how to play each of the different modes of each scale and 'translate' them up and down the fretboard

B) learn what each KEY itself "looks like" - where all 7 of my notes are in all octaves for each key, and use that as the pattern,

I suspect that an advanced bass player simply KNOWS exactly which notes are in key and where they are, and are therefore not constrained by having to follow patterns. Like, if the song is in the key of E major, he simply knows what E major looks like - where all the notes are - instead of know what the major scale looks like in all the different positions and figuring out which position he is at.

Am I wrong? Do experienced bassists still think about their patterns when they play?

[MattP]

I think the ultimate destination, and I'm not close yet, is to be able to play the next note without thinking. And it sounds like that may be what you are describing?

My goal is to is to be able to use both. If someone calls a key I want to be able to instantly recall all the notes in that key, all diatonic chords (and their notes), the arpeggio patterns for each diatonic chord in every position, the location of the passing tones (non chord notes that are in the scale), etc. I want to be able to do that without touching my bass. I'm not sure if this is the same thing you are referring to as your option A.

I want to be able to play patterns for all of those in every position, starting from every finger. I don't want that ability so much for the "find the next note" aspect as much as the "get to the next note smoothly" aspect. I think this goes along with your option b, but I'm practicing this for a completely different reason.

[Mushroo]

Speaking only for myself, I have never outgrown patterns/muscle memory (for example 2-4, 1-2-4, 1-3-4 for the major scale). Yes, I know the pattern of whole steps/half steps, and I know the sharps and flats, and I know the note names, but it's nice to burn through the scale without thinking about each note.

[MattP]

Originally Posted by Mushroo

. . . but it's nice to burn through the scale without thinking about each note.

I think that's the ultimate goal. It may not matter how you get there.

[Papa Dangerous]

Ahh okay. Sorry to speak so basic to you then. I always assume that everyone knows nothing, just to not confuse a person.

Okay. So you know your scales and intervals. Awesome. You did not mention chords. I assume that you do have an idea considering you know intervals and scales.

So, what I suggest from there is to learn chord arpeggiations. Know how to make a descending major, minor, diminished and augmented triad. Then learn ascending. Learn all your seventh chord types, ascending and descending. Then learn all the inversions.

By knowing these, you should have knowledge of scale patterns, chords, intervals, and the chord qualities of the scale.

Next, all you should need to know are chord progressions. I suggest the circle of fifths chord progression first.

This becomes a lot of information but if you know the fret board pattern for major and minor scales, and you know the chord qualities associated with each scale degree then all you need to know are the arpeggiations, and chord progressions. With all this, you will have that advanced bassist know how of:
We are playing in the key of c minor with a 1, 2, 4, 5 progression.

Is this better, or did I miss the point again? I know you mentioned knowing all the modes and such, but I say only concern yourself with major and minor until you have them mastered. Then mess around with the dorian, mixolydian, and phyrgian.

[Hubes]

These were all helpful posts. I'll address them all in one reply post:

MattP: So you intend to learn the shape of the key itself via learning the shapes of individual sub-patterns and linking them together?

Mushroo: So would you advise using one basic pattern (like 2-4-- 1-2-4 -- 1-3-4 -- 1-3-4) for each scale and just finding the roots on the different strings to apply it to, or rather would you advise to learn how to play all the different patterns (modes) of the same scale, starting on all the different notes?

Papa D: This was very helpful. I understand your assumption - I imagine plenty of players probably have little idea of the theory, especially at an early on stage like i'm at. I'm by no means a theory expert, but my mind requires I understand how things work or else I go crazy. I do know the notes of my major and minor triads, and I know how to play a given major or minor triad on the bass. I also know how to figure out my diminished, augmented, and maj/min/dom 7ths notes, but those i have to think about.

You lost me at descending/ascending triads though: does this just mean learn to play 5th-3rd-Root (as a major triad example) and then Root-3rd-5th etc. for different types of chords? Are you suggesting I learn the shapes backwards and forwards to see how the "fit" together and form my patterns that way? Also, is arpeggiating a chord like that a pretty common way of doing fills and such when the progression is on that chord?

Also, could you explain the circle of fifths progression?

I understand how I ii iii IV V vi vii* works in a major scale, and things like "c minor with a 1, 2, 4, 5 progression" makes sense to me (though I probably would struggly playing it at this point). Is the circle of fifths progression just the typical I IV V?

Thank you all.

[bucephylus]

Learn all, then forget about it and play (to take some liberty paraphrasing Miles).

I mean if you just allow the scale patterns or chord patterns or whatever to dictate your playing, you will end up kind of "wiggling your fingers," as Jaco used to say. Those structures are certainly useful frameworks; but, the important idea is to say something when you play, play what you feel, feel what you play, play what you mean, etc.

IME, if you kind of work at it from both sides, they eventually come together in some fashion. GL

PS: as far as starting frameworks which are useful idiomatically and simply: playing, feeling, and understanding the pentatonic patterns and diatonic series are good starting points, both in terms of scales and chordal groups.

[Hubes]

Originally Posted by bucephylus

IME, if you kind of work at it from both sides, they eventually come together in some fashion. GL

Meaning learn both patterns and the "feel" of things at the same time?

[JTE]

Originally Posted by Hubes

Method 1: Learn each of the most common scale patterns (major, minor, pentatonics, blues etc) and simply translate them across the fretboard for each different key.

Method 2: Learn the locations of all the notes, and what notes to play in which keys, and simply play what notes belong in the given key wherever they are convenient to me on the fretboard, and let the patterns "fall into place" in muscle memory so to speak.

I already know what all the notes on the fretboard are - its just that past fret 7 I have to think about it for a second-its not natural. I also know what notes make up each major (and thus relative minor) keys on the right half of the circle of fifths.

It seems to me like it would be easier to know what note I've got to play, and know every location of that note on the board than to learn 5+ types of scales plus all the modal variations.

I guess what I want to know is: Advanced bass players - when you are playing a song, do you consciously implement scale patterns into your playing to figure out where the next note is, or do you just know what notes fit the key and where to find them?

For example, (still for experienced guys) say your're going from playing a riff on the 9th-12th fret range and want to walk it down an octave or two to the 2nd-5th fret range. Do you keep track of what mode of what scale of what key you are in and trace the patterns down? Or do you just know what notes you need, and where to find them without a pattern?

I just feel like it would be a waste of time to learn all of those scale patterns if eventually I'll just be able to pick out notes anywhere I find them to be convenient. Any ideas?

A. Own the diatonic major scale before you worry about any other scale. Know it in all keys starting anywhere on the neck (NOT thinking of it as modes, but KNOWING that when you start the G major scale with the open E string that you're starting on the 6th). Be able to spell the scale notes (with correct enharmonics) and find them on the neck no matte where your hand is.

B. Practice arpeggios up and down the neck. I don't think at all in scales, but rather in terms of chord tones.

C. One very useful practice exercise (from Jaco Pastorious' DCI video- I think this is what an earlier poster was suggesting) is to play the arpeggios up and down the neck by alternating them. So, in G you play a GMaj7 ascending, then an Amin7 descending, Bmin7 ascending, CMaj7 descending, D7 ascending, Emin7 descending, F#min7b5 ascending, Gmaj7 descending, Amin7 ascending, Bmin7 descending, CMaj7 ascending, D7 descending, Emin7 ascending, F#mn7b5 descending, and end on Gmaj7 ascending. So start with the G at the third fret, play G B D F#. Then go up a half step to G and play G, E, C, A descending, then go up to B D F# A, etc.

D. Don't play anything as an exercise unless you're actively singing the notes as you play them, or even better BEFORE you play the note. Use this method Jerry Jemmott teaches. The method is to speak the name and interval, sing it, then play it. Take your scale, say A major and say "The root A", then sing that note, then play it, then say "B, the second", sing the pitch and play it. This is slow, but it teaches your ear and your hands to work together, and it forces you to LISTEN to what you're playing instead of "ripping the scale real fast". That's just wiggling your fingers and has nothing to do with music.

To "know" a scale means to me that you know how it's constructed (whole steps and half steps), you can name the correct notes which means correct enharmonics (that is, you not only know that A has a C#, but you know WHY it's NOT Db), you know how it sounds before you play it, you can find the notes of it everywhere on the neck and not just in memorized patterns, and you know the 7th chords built on each degree of the scale.

You get there by just doing it. Take the A major scale and find the notes all over the neck. Play it up and down one string (not starting on the root), play it in five positions across the neck, play over as many octaves as you have strings/frets, play the arpeggios of its chords.

John

[Papa Dangerous]

Originally Posted by Hubes

These were all helpful posts. I'll address them all in one reply post:

MattP: So you intend to learn the shape of the key itself via learning the shapes of individual sub-patterns and linking them together?

Mushroo: So would you advise using one basic pattern (like 2-4-- 1-2-4 -- 1-3-4 -- 1-3-4) for each scale and just finding the roots on the different strings to apply it to, or rather would you advise to learn how to play all the different patterns (modes) of the same scale, starting on all the different notes?

Papa D: This was very helpful. I understand your assumption - I imagine plenty of players probably have little idea of the theory, especially at an early on stage like i'm at. I'm by no means a theory expert, but my mind requires I understand how things work or else I go crazy. I do know the notes of my major and minor triads, and I know how to play a given major or minor triad on the bass. I also know how to figure out my diminished, augmented, and maj/min/dom 7ths notes, but those i have to think about.

You lost me at descending/ascending triads though: does this just mean learn to play 5th-3rd-Root (as a major triad example) and then Root-3rd-5th etc. for different types of chords? Are you suggesting I learn the shapes backwards and forwards to see how the "fit" together and form my patterns that way? Also, is arpeggiating a chord like that a pretty common way of doing fills and such when the progression is on that chord?

Also, could you explain the circle of fifths progression?

I understand how I ii iii IV V vi vii* works in a major scale, and things like "c minor with a 1, 2, 4, 5 progression" makes sense to me (though I probably would struggle playing it at this point). Is the circle of fifths progression just the typical I IV V?

Thank you all.

When I say ascending and descending I mean arpeggiate the chord from a deeper note to higher note. Then higher note to lower note. Say you are working around your third fret of the e string and you play two two chord arpegiations. ( lets say G major then D major) and now you are on your g string (giggity). You cannot go down any more strings, so you should work your way back up via descending. (granted, you are going up the strings, but it refers to the pitch. The lower the string, the higher the pitch, so descending is going up... Damn irony)

The circle of fifths is movement by fifths (and fourths - a fifth up and a forth down is the same pitch an octave away)

Look at a circle of fifths chart. From the 12 o clock position and moving clockwise, you will see the notes go from C-G-D-A-E-B etc. In each step, a Sharp get added. And the previous Sharp is kept.

So a C major scale has no sharps, the G has one sharp (F#). Then D has F# then C#. This continues throughout and theoretically can continue endlessly adding double sharps and triple sharps. (but this is never practiced, just theoretical)

So that is the jist of the setup of the circle of fifths. A circle of fifths progression is movement by this model.

I am not currently at a comp (on phone) so o suggest to Google circle of fifths progression and there should be a good step by step tutorial of designing it. I would explain here, but I do not want to give wrong information.

I am going edit this post to include a link to a thread I made. It has a lot of information in there geared towards a person who is fresh to theory. I recommend reading it over lightly at first. I wrote in a certain order so that you can build off each section.


Edit: here is the link. It has two sections. The first part and then the first comment. Apparently TB only allows 20,000 characters per post, and I did over 25,000 xD

Fretboard Logic via Intervals, Scales and Chords. This is your one spot!

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by Hubes

Mushroo: So would you advise using one basic pattern (like 2-4-- 1-2-4 -- 1-3-4 -- 1-3-4) for each scale and just finding the roots on the different strings to apply it to, or rather would you advise to learn how to play all the different patterns (modes) of the same scale, starting on all the different notes?

Good to know how to play a major scale starting with the 1st, 2nd, or 4th finger (I've never found a good fingering starting with the 3rd). Also good to know each of the 12 major scales over the entire range of the instrument--for example Ab major, if you are over-reliant on 24-124-134, you miss out on the low F and G, the open G, etc. And bonus points if you can play each major scale all the way up and down each string.

You ask about modes, IMHO they are a little bit over-rated. More important to know the major scale and harmonic/melodic minor scales cold, and understand the commonly-used chords and progressions. For example if I play the progression Amin, Dmin, G7, C, I don't think "A Aeolian, D Dorian, G Mixolydian, C Ionian" but rather "vi-ii-V-I."

Honestly the best way to learn this stuff is to practice songs. Not just the bass lines but also the melodies. There is a musical concept called "voice leading" that basically teaches how the different half steps, whole steps, etc. move over a changing chord progression. Once you get the sound in your head you'll understand which are the "strong" notes in the scale and which are weaker passing notes. It all fits in with the harmony somehow, and I am still learning!

[bucephylus]

Originally Posted by Hubes

Meaning learn both patterns and the "feel" of things at the same time?

Sure, both feel and sound. Also, learn a lot of song melodies and how they are put together.

Ultimately, you will want to play with intended expression. The scales are rudiments. Its nice. There is a lot to learn.

[MattP]

Originally Posted by Hubes

MattP: So you intend to learn the shape of the key itself via learning the shapes of individual sub-patterns and linking them together?

Yes. I view this as a technique exercise, but after reading some of the other posts I realize I am doing more than that.

When I'm playing a chord progression, I want to make sure my transitions are smooth. So that's the way I practice them. This is something I just started incorporating into my routine, but I'm going to try to explain it.

If I decide to practice the I IV progression, I'll pick a section of my neck. I have a 20 fret neck, so I generally section off as 0 - 5, 6 - 10, 11 - 15, and 16 - 20. I will play the arpeggios for those chords on that section of the neck in all keys. Right now I'm starting all of the arpeggios on the E string (that's why I think of it as a technique exercise). I try to keep the exercise as musical as possible. I eventually plan to expand to starting the arpeggios on any string, but I want to work up to that. I also want to incorporate passing tones into the mix to avoid big jumps.

This isn't always an exercise I do with my bass in my hand. This is a great visualization exercise as well.

[Hubes]

Originally Posted by JTE

I don't think at all in scales, but rather in terms of chord tones.

Could you perhaps elaborate on how this applies when you are playing? Do you mean that you base your playing off of how the patterns of each of the arpeggiated chords in the key fit together? Should I learn to piece together the different arpeggio patterns instead of the brute-force "this is the major scale in the 1st position. Learn it for every root note of every key." learning method?

Originally Posted by JTE

You get there by just doing it. Take the A major scale and find the notes all over the neck. Play it up and down one string (not starting on the root), play it in five positions across the neck, play over as many octaves as you have strings/frets, play the arpeggios of its chords.

So you are suggesting the goal is in fact to just learn the notes of each key as a whole, and let the patterns fall into place? This is what I want to do, but I'm not sure if this is what you are implying, or if it is as efficient as I'm hoping.

Originally Posted by Papa Dangerous

When I say ascending and descending I mean arpeggiate the chord from a deeper note to higher note. Then higher note to lower note. Say you are working around your third fret of the e string and you play two two chord arpegiations. ( lets say G major then D major) and now you are on your g string (giggity). You cannot go down any more strings, so you should work your way back up via descending. (granted, you are going up the strings, but it refers to the pitch. The lower the string, the higher the pitch, so descending is going up... Damn irony)

Got it. Is this also a practical way of learning to "walk" between chords? Or does walking between two notes involve more of the scale than just the arpeggios of the chords in question?

Originally Posted by Papa Dangerous

The circle of fifths is movement by fifths (and fourths - a fifth up and a forth down is the same pitch an octave away)

So that is the jist of the setup of the circle of fifths. A circle of fifths progression is movement by this model.

Fretboard Logic via Intervals, Scales and Chords. This is your one spot!

Thanks for all this! I grasp most of the theory pretty well, its the application that I'm currently getting at. How exactly do you suggest practicing these progressions? By doing the arpeggio method above for each chord in the progression?

[Hubes]

Originally Posted by Mushroo

Good to know how to play a major scale starting with the 1st, 2nd, or 4th finger (I've never found a good fingering starting with the 3rd).

Do you mean pick a root (ex. G on the E string, 3rd fret) and play scales starting with the index finger on that G, then the middle, then the 4th (changing positions so to speak)? Or do you mean to keep the same position but start the scale on whatever notes the 1st, 2nd and 4th fingers fall on?

Originally Posted by Mushroo

You ask about modes, IMHO they are a little bit over-rated. More important to know the major scale and harmonic/melodic minor scales cold, and understand the commonly-used chords and progressions. For example if I play the progression Amin, Dmin, G7, C, I don't think "A Aeolian, D Dorian, G Mixolydian, C Ionian" but rather "vi-ii-V-I."

But doesn't one inherently learn modes just by learning to play scales on different parts of the neck starting with different notes of the scale? For example, if I learn the notes of the C major scale, then if I play those notes in a scale pattern where I start on A instead of C, is that not just a different mode of the same scale (which I believe would be the same as an A minor scale)? I understand that identifying the mode one is playing in may be difficult and perhaps even useless, but it seems to me that knowing *how* to play a scale in different modes is essential...

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Hubes

Method 1: Learn each of the most common scale patterns (major, minor, pentatonics, blues etc) and simply translate them across the fretboard for each different key.

Method 2: Learn the locations of all the notes, and what notes to play in which keys, and simply play what notes belong in the given key wherever they are convenient to me on the fretboard, and let the patterns "fall into place" in muscle memory so to speak.

I already know what all the notes on the fretboard are - its just that past fret 7 I have to think about it for a second-its not natural. I also know what notes make up each major (and thus relative minor) keys on the right half of the circle of fifths.

It seems to me like it would be easier to know what note I've got to play, and know every location of that note on the board than to learn 5+ types of scales plus all the modal variations.

I guess what I want to know is: Advanced bass players - when you are playing a song, do you consciously implement scale patterns into your playing to figure out where the next note is, or do you just know what notes fit the key and where to find them?

For example, (still for experienced guys) say your're going from playing a riff on the 9th-12th fret range and want to walk it down an octave or two to the 2nd-5th fret range. Do you keep track of what mode of what scale of what key you are in and trace the patterns down? Or do you just know what notes you need, and where to find them without a pattern?

I just feel like it would be a waste of time to learn all of those scale patterns if eventually I'll just be able to pick out notes anywhere I find them to be convenient. Any ideas?

With respect, I think you're WAY overthinking this.

You're creating an opposition where there is none. This is all the same knowledge, and it all fits together. Making it into an either/or thing just complicates matters needlessly.

The understanding of the notes and their functions is basically what you want to get to. But that doesn't mean the physical patterns are useless. Playing has both a physical and a mental component (you could add more here, like emotional, spiritual, whatever, but let's stick with these two for now). If you only learn physical patterns, you'll won't progress far, because you won't really understand them or be able to use them creatively very well. But if you don't pay attention to the physical side of your instrument, you won't be able to execute your ideas very well, no matter how hip they might be.

Learning physical patterns for scales is, in part, a way of familiarizing your body with common tasks that it may be called on to perform in a physical setting. If you practice them enough, you can do them without having to expend a lot of conscious thought on them, meaning you can save those brain waves for something more creative.

Think of it this way: When you walk to the nearest pub, do you think about every single muscle action you take? No, of course you don't. You don't think, contract this muscle here, that one there, relax this one, flex foot, or whatever. You just walk, and you spend your brain waves thinking about where you want to go. The "muscle knowledge," if you will, is put at the service of your larger goal, which is to go get a beer. If you only knew how to walk but didn't know how to follow directions, you'd never make it to the pub. If you knew how to get to the pub but couldn't walk, you'd also have a hard time getting there.

So learn it ALL: notes, patterns, functions, everything. JTE's and Papa's posts are good starting points. Also, see Pacman's sticky scales thread in this very subforum (look up at the top).

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by Hubes

Do you mean pick a root (ex. G on the E string, 3rd fret) and play scales starting with the index finger on that G, then the middle, then the 4th (changing positions so to speak)? Or do you mean to keep the same position but start the scale on whatever notes the 1st, 2nd and 4th fingers fall on?

I don't think it has to be either/or but what I meant was, learn fingerings for the major scale starting from the root with your 1st, 2nd, and 4th finger... don't just learn one pattern.

Originally Posted by Hubes

But doesn't one inherently learn modes just by learning to play the same scales on different parts of the neck (starting with different notes of the scale)? It's learning to name each mode that I would imagine is the setback.

IMHO the modal way of thinking is useful in limited situations (for example playing with Miles Davis). As I said above, when I am playing a progression in the key of C, I do not think in terms of C Ionian, D Dorian, etc. but rather the chord progression in the key of C. Another example, if I am playing a blues tune with a I7-IV7-V7 progression, I don't think of it as E Mixolydian-A Mixolydian-B Mixolydian but rather E7-A7-B7. Do you see the difference? But that is just my personal opinion/preference; other approaches are valid too.

Anyways learning the modes is not hard, you just have to memorize seven Greek words and you're done.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Hubes

But doesn't one inherently learn modes just by learning to play scales on different parts of the neck starting with different notes of the scale?

No. You learn some finger patterns that can be used for playing modes, but you're not learning what modes are. Re-read JTE's post above on what it means to really know a scale/mode.

Originally Posted by Hubes

I understand that identifying the mode one is playing in may be difficult and perhaps even useless, but it seems to me that knowing *how* to play a scale in different modes is essential...

It's the other way around. Knowing how to start a scale from the lowest note available on your bass--eg, starting an A major scale from the low E--is indeed useful in itself, but that's not "playing a scale in different modes" and has little or nothing to do with modes in any musically meaningful sense. Thinking of that in modal terms is really what's useless. Modes are NOT just different facets of a scale--they ARE scales and "keys" on their own merits.

And "identifying the mode one is playing in" is far from useless--it's actually one of the times when modal analysis is MOST useful. (That is, when you actually ARE playing in a mode and not just shifting to a different chord in the same key. A lot of stuff frequently claimed to be modal really isn't, and a lot of stuff that really is isn't always recognized as such.)