A thought about downtuning

[Schizo Sapiens]

Sometimes i see people on talkbass asking something like: "i'm going to audition for a band but they play in lower tuning. Can i get away with my standard tuned bass?". I'll try to explain here, why you can't (at least in rock/metal music).

It's not a rule or law, just my opinion (expressed not very clearly) and i'd like to discuss it.

You may need some basic understanding of harmonics.

I've recorded five sounds (you can hear them there) and made the spectrogram of them.

There are spectrograms of first three sounds:



1. First sample is low D bass note (3rd fret on a B-string). You can see fundamental tone (36.7 Hz or D1 in scientific pitch notation) and overtones, which are multiples of it.

2. Second sample is higher D bass note (5th fret on A-string). Its fundamental tone is one octave higher and overtones are scarcer (but they extend somewhat higher).

3. Third sample is distorted guitar playing low D5 power chord (three bottom strings on Drop-D tuned guitar). Its lowest note is D2 (73.4 Hz) but in combination with fifth degree (A2 note) and distortion it generates additional overtones and undertones, lowest one being one octave lower than lowest power chord's note (tonic).

As you can see, guitar power chord starting from D2 note has similar harmonic content to D1 bass note: 36.7 Hz and its multiples.

Now let's take a look (and listen) to sounds #4 and #5:



4. Fourth sample is D5 guitar powerchord & low D bass note (sounds #1 and #3 together). It's nice, powerful blending of two instruments (or rather it would be if i made better recording ). Guitar gives it cutting roar and the bass gives it powerful low-end support and clear definite tonic.

5. Fifth sample is D5 guitar powerchord & high D bass note (sounds #2 and #3 together). It sounds not that good: bass is one octave higher than lowest guitar undertone and guitar has richer harmonic content than bass (just compare spectrograms #2 and #3 from first picture). So this sound begs for either higher power chord or lower bass note.

So if you are going to play with downtuned guitars, you will need to downtune your bass so your lowest bass note would be at least one octave lower than lowest note of the guitars.

Otherwise, if you will play higher B note (2 fret on A-string) against low B5 chord, you are going to sound like sample #5 and the band will lack bass power overall. It's just like playing standard tuned rock/metal music without touching the E-string: it won't sound right.

So my opinion is: in rock or metal context downtuned guitars require downtuned bass. You can't play standard tuned 4-string with downtuned band and sound good (in my opinion).

P. S. There are some heavy bands (Meshuggah and recent Deftones come to mind) that have downtuned guitar and bass tuned in unison with that guitar. But when they do it, they never play powerchords (they don't sound good that low anyway) so the problem described here doesn't occur.

P. P. S. Some may say that one can use octaver pedal on standard tuned bass to play in downtuned band. But IMO octaver has obviously artificial sound. It is nice tool to blend some low-end to your sound or nail some low synth-like sounds in a cover band but it will never sound like real low-tuned bass note. And I've never heard of low-tuning band using octaver on bass.

[VincentSalizeri]

Thank you for showing some data for the subject, I doubt that's something commonly known. Do you have anything for a few other common chords through distortion? IIRC distortion will do something similar to any chord, though I don't think it'll sound as good.

[Schizo Sapiens]

Originally Posted by VincentSalizeri

Do you have anything for a few other common chords through distortion?

I don't but i can make some.

Originally Posted by VincentSalizeri

IIRC distortion will do something similar to any chord, though I don't think it'll sound as good.

You're right. Simply put, harmonic content of any distorted chord will consist of least common multiple of all the notes' frequencies and its multiples. So, the more complex the ratios are, the dirtier it will sound. For example, power chord (2:3:4 frequencies ratio) sounds awesome with heavy distortion, major (2:3:4:5 in standard guitar voicing) and sus2 chords (something simple too, can't remember now) will sound decent and minor chord (that has much more complex ratios) will produce dirty mess.

[mambo4]

So you're saying the overtones of an open D string (or whatever the down tuned note is) are necessary for a bass tone to sound "good" in this context? Interesting argument.
Personally sometimes use the timbre of open strings, and sometimes I use the same note elsewhere, depending on what I feel the song needs.

With respect, even though the graphs and science is correct (different tunings = different overtones on the same pitch)
You are still asserting what is essentially and opinion. I hope nobody mistakes this for "scientific proof" that it "sounds good"...

wonder what the graph looks like if you take a standard tuned bass and play the open D through a decent octaver....

[Schizo Sapiens]

Originally Posted by mambo4

So you're saying the overtones of an open D string (or whatever the down tuned note is) are necessary for a bass tone to sound "good" in this context?

Not really. It's the overtones (and undertones) of distorted power chord, not just note.

I would say it other way: not "overtones of an open D string are necessary for a bass tone to sound "good"" but "bass note should be one octave lower than lowest note of powerchord because of certain structure of their harmonics".

(different tunings = different overtones on the same pitch)

Not really again. Same pitch will have the same overtones (their structure may be very different but frequencies will be the same: multiples of the the pitch' frequency). Just to make things clear: Low D and high D are not the same pitch.

You are still asserting what is essentially and opinion. I hope nobody mistakes this for "scientific proof" that it "sounds good"...

Of course, this is opinion: you can't scientifically prove that something sounds good or not .
But this opinion is based on years of playing and listening to heavy music. It can be easily disproved by showing me rock/metal band with downtuned guitars and standard tuned bass getting good powerful sound (and don't forget the P. S. part of the original post).

wonder what the graph looks like if you take a standard tuned bass and play the open D through a decent octaver....

I don't have much experience with octavers but every one i have heard had clearly artificial sound, good enough for blending with dry signal but totally artificial on its own. And that's just the nature of octaver.

I don't have the octaver (except the awful one in my guitar processor), otherwise i would just make recording of some bassline in low register and the same line played octave higher through the octaver. The difference would be obvious. It would be nice if someone made such recording and then i would make the spectrogram of it.

[lunarpollen]

What you might thing sounds "good" or "powerful" might sound weak and dull to someone else. Like you said, it's all a matter of opinion. And not all heavy music relegates the bass role to that of one that merely copies the guitar but an octave lower.

[Schizo Sapiens]

Originally Posted by lunarpollen

And not all heavy music relegates the bass role to that of one that merely copies the guitar but an octave lower.

I never said that you should copy guitar all the time. But you should be able to give support to low chords when needed. And you need to have appropriate range for that.

[anonymous122511]

Originally Posted by Schizo Sapiens

you should be able to give support to low chords when needed. And you need to have appropriate range for that.

Like a low B string?

[Schizo Sapiens]

Originally Posted by jeff arddun

Like a low B string?

Depends on guitars tuning. It may be a 5-string or detuned 4-string or whatever that can play note one octave lower that lowest guitar note (preferably sharing the same open notes, one octave lower; for example: AEADF#B guitar and AEAD or AEADG or AEADF# bass).

[anonymous122511]

Originally Posted by Schizo Sapiens

Depends on guitars tuning. It may be 5-string or detuned 4-string or whatever that can play note one octave lower that lowest guitar note.

If you're trying to say without hearing me that to sound good I HAVE to be able to play an octave lower than the lowest note the guitar can play I'm calling bull***t.

[xxfaux_punkxx]

wouldn't it be possible if the guitars become an octave lower than bass, for the two roles to switch?

[anonymous122511]

Originally Posted by xxfaux_punkxx

wouldn't it be possible if the guitars become an octave lower than bass, for the two roles to switch?

What an awesome way of dealing.

[xxfaux_punkxx]

Originally Posted by jeff arddun

What an awesome way of dealing.

I might have to mention this at the next band practice. Our guitarist keeps his Fender in Drop A so maybe do a song that's nothing but solid bass... although how would the drummer be affected? I'm not a drummer but I'm pretty sure that a drumset needs to be tuned in with the stringed instruments.

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by Schizo Sapiens

Same pitch will have the same overtones (their structure may be very different but frequencies will be the same: multiples of the the pitch' frequency).

I disagree. Sure the harmonic series will be the same, but different fret/string combos will emphasize different harmonics. If you play open D and play D at the 10th fret E string they will vibrate differently and sound different. They have different timbres. The timbre of an instrument is determined by which overtones it emphasizes. hence different overtones.

Sorry, just being nit-picky I know...

[bolophonic]

I play with a dude who tunes to drop D. I use a 4-string Precision strung BEAD. It sounds awesome.

[Rockingbird]

You learn something new everyday, huh?

[Schizo Sapiens]

Originally Posted by jeff arddun

If you're trying to say without hearing me that to sound good I HAVE to be able to play an octave lower than the lowest note the guitar can play I'm calling bull***t.

So you're playing in standard with downtuned guitars? It may work just fine, it depends on parts that you and guitar are playing. What kind of music do you play? I'd like to hear it.

Originally Posted by mambo4

Sure the harmonic series will be the same, but different fret/string combos will emphasize different harmonics.

You're right, i meant harmonic series, my bad.

Originally Posted by mambo4

I play with a dude who tunes to drop D. I use a 4-string Precision strung BEAD. It sounds awesome.

Of course, since you have that low D

TO ALL:

I'd like to clarify some things.

My point consists of two parts:
1. Harmonic series of distorted power chord of some note are the same that harmonic series of single note octave lower.
2. So you need to have that low note on the bass, because it provides perfect foundation for power chord and backing up power chords is essential part of playing in heavy genres.

First statement is a fact (just look at picture 1, samples #1 & #3)

Second one is just intuitive thing, based on my hearing primarily. It's one of those awkward things that you kinda understand but can't really put into words
First of all I've learned that from playing over different music (back in my four-string days, when i did realized that you need that range for downtuned music and higher note doesn't really cut it in most cases) and recording my own (trying different combinations). And only later, playing with spectrum analyzer i suggested that structure of harmonic series may explain that.

Thanks for all your answers. I just presented some hypothesis and wanted to discuss it. But some of you had reacted as if I've said you to play certain way. Probably it's my bad wording.

[anonymous122511]

Originally Posted by Schizo Sapiens

My point consists of two parts:
1. Harmonic series of distorted power chord of some note are the same that harmonic series of single note octave lower.
2. So you need to have that low note on the bass, because backing up power chords is essential part of playing in heavy genres.

If you think you can make blanket statements about what someone else can or can't do your world view is very limited. I don't see the role of the bass in heavy or any other kind of music as "backing up" guitar power chords. I hear what you're saying but by the time you start making rules about what certain instruments HAVE to do then the genre is dead. You're advocating a cliché.

That's all.
Have beautiful day.

[Schizo Sapiens]

Originally Posted by jeff arddun

If you think you can make blanket statements about what someone else can or can't do

But i never made blanket statement. I made assumption, i expressed opinion, that's all. And i never said that you should play only that way. All i mean is: i think it's the best way in most of the cases (not all cases, so it's not blanket statement).

And there are places in my songs where bass plays in the same octave as guitar chord. Sometimes it's right time for that.

Originally Posted by jeff arddun

I don't see the role of the bass in heavy or any other kind of music as "backing up" guitar power chords

Me too. I don't think that bass should do ONLY that (and i already objected to such assumption in this thread). But sometimes you need just that. Or should i say "i need", since you take that "you" word too personal ?

But you're right somewhat. There are some things in OP that are worded improperly, I'm gonna edit them now.

[shackled]

I need another cup of coffee.
Then maybe I'll understand.