Time

[Stingray5]

Originally posted by embellisher
Now when it comes to time, I understand the value of notes and rests, and basic time signatures like 2/2, 3/4, 4/4, 6/8, etc.

But odd times, such as 5/4, 7/4, 11/4, 11/8 are giving me fits. I can't feel them the way that I can a 3 or a 4.

Can anyone recommend some good resources for developing a feel for odd(is compound the word I am looking for?) times, and maybe some songs that I can listen to in which the feel is evident?

Here's something that may get you started on the basic feel of odd time sigs. First off, don't think of them as so odd in the first place. If you can feel 2/4, 3/4 and 4/4 then you can feel 7/4 or 7/8.

The thing that everyone's touched on so far here is SUBDIVIDING. a song in 7 can be felt in many ways. Similar to what JT was saying about pulse notes, you can count 7 in different combinations. Common ways are:

1 2 3 4 1 2 3

or

1 2 1 2 1 2 3

with the bold numbers being accents. Tap these rhythms (repeating at a constant tempo) with your hand while counting (or play a note on bass). MAKE SURE to include the accents. In the first example you could just as easily be playing a bar of 4/4 and a bar of 3/4. The second ex. could be 2 bars of 2/4 and a bar of 3/4.

Play each one separately, repeating over and over at a constant tempo. Then try combining them and alternating between the two rhythms. Then try counting the entire figure but ONLY playing the accents. You''ll be playing, and FEELING, 7/8.

[embellisher]

Originally posted by Murf
On a similar topic I've a question for American TB ers:

when talking about timing I see you guys refer to 8ths, 16ths etc. whereas when I learnt theory (here in Ireland) it was crotchets, quavers, minims etc. do you guys use these conventions in the states?

Hemidemisemiquavers? Never heard of 'em!

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by Stingray5


Here's something that may get you started on the basic feel of odd time sigs. First off, don't think of them as so odd in the first place. If you can feel 2/4, 3/4 and 4/4 then you can feel 7/4 or 7/8.

The thing that everyone's touched on so far here is SUBDIVIDING. a song in 7 can be felt in many ways. Similar to what JT was saying about pulse notes, you can count 7 in different combinations. Common ways are:

1 2 3 4 1 2 3

or

1 2 1 2 1 2 3

with the bold numbers being accents. Tap these rhythms (repeating at a constant tempo) with your hand while counting (or play a note on bass). MAKE SURE to include the accents. In the first example you could just as easily be playing a bar of 4/4 and a bar of 3/4. The second ex. could be 2 bars of 2/4 and a bar of 3/4.

Play each one separately, repeating over and over at a constant tempo. Then try combining them and alternating between the two rhythms. Then try counting the entire figure but ONLY playing the accents. You''ll be playing, and FEELING, 7/8.

TIMEJUGGLER,

I think that CORVETTE 2+3 has hit the crux of the biscuit with his post, which is fantastic advice. Igor Stravinsky once wrote that you only have to be able to count to three to be a good rhythmic musician, because everything else can be reduced to combinations of accent patterns based on the numbers 1, 2, and 3 (this from the man who liked to use time sigs such as 13/8 at one point in his career). You know the Rush song "Tom Sawyer"? Most of it is in 4/4, but there's a part in the middle where everyone plays a unison line that displays odd meter characteristics that can be used as an example of two different ways of thinking of 7/8.

The phrase is two bars in length, and both are (or for the fussy Rushophlies among us, can be seen as) measures of 7/8. The first uses the accent pattern 2+2+3:

1234567 (or 1212 123)

and the second measure uses the pattern 3+2+2:

1234567 (or 1231212)


Put them together (beat these accents on your desk while reading) and you get this:

1234567 1234567

(or)

12121231231212




Do you know the part I'm talking about? It can be explained/notated in other ways (like 7/4, 4/4 + 3/4, etc), but this is one way to think of it that is a good illustration of contrasting patterns in 7/8 right in the same tune.

This is a great thread, glad you started it.

[Murf]

Originally posted by embellisher


Hemidemisemiquavers? Never heard of 'em!

......wow havent heard that one in a looooonnng time.

(actually the more I think of it that could be a good name for a band....although try saying it with 7 pints in you..."ladiesh n geneltemen pu' yer handsh together fer DE HEM..HEMINI..HEMINI DEMINIMI...bugger..THE BAND")

[jazzbo]

Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
TIMEJUGGLER,

I think that CORVETTE 2+3 has hit the crux of the biscuit with his post, which is fantastic advice. Igor Stravinsky once ....

lots of stuff in here about stuff....

... but this is one way to think of it that is a good way to think of contrasting patterns in 7/8 right in the same tune.

This is a great thread, glad you started it. [/b]

So, I'm guessing this all made sense to you as you typed it?! Scary man Chris. Scary man.

[JimK]

I've noticed a recurring pattern in my half-baked grooves-
Bar 1 = 4/4
Bar 2 = 7/8

...wonderin' if that came from listening to Led Zep's "The Ocean" ad infinitum way back when?

Another comment regarding JT's post about the guita in 4, the bass in 5, & how everything meets back up on 1 eventually. That's cool(& drummers do this all the time).
Also, one can fit everything within the same bar.

If you have a sequencer or a drum machine, here's the math-

If 4/4 @100 bpm is 'the reference'(1/4 note = 100 bpm)

To fit 5/4 within that bar, multiply 100 x 1.25
...125 bpm.

6/4...100 x 1.50 = 150 bpm
7/4...100 x 1.75 = 175 bpm

3/4...100 x 0.75 = 75 bpm

Maybe it's geek-ish, just some BS I like to fool around with...

[hujo]

Sometimes, What I try to do when playing in odd times, is just to follow the melody, and stop counting. Sometimes it's not that hard, really, because most of the time, it follows the melody, and therefor makes sense. I recieved the music for Echidna's arf by Zappa a while ago, and tried to practice before the first rehearsal. I had never heard the song, and the 5/16, the 11/16, and the 2/4 4/4 5/4 4/4 7/4 bars after each other just freaked me out. It was very hard to read, and make music out of it. But when we all played together, it just fell in to place (well most of it anyway), since it followed the melody or if it didn't, someone else had something that you could follow, or that made you understand better. Ofcourse, it's always good to keep counting, and sometimes that's your only solution, to subdivide and subdivide and subdivide, but sometimes, you can just let it go.

If you want listening tips, i suggest zappa. the piece i mentioned, is an orgie in odd meters, if you can find it.

Also Jesus Christ Superstar has some good stuff in 5/4 (Everything's allright) and 7/8 (The Temple), 9/8 among other things. There is some good bass-playing there aswell, BTW.

AND it's time for some shameless self-promotion: If you click the link in my signature, and click DEMO, and listen to song Partek Polska, you'll find some bad bass-playing, and out of tune violins, but also a melody that hints at odd meters, with a steady (well it's supposed to be anyway) beat from the bass, guitar and drums in 3/4.

Great tip about putting the beats in groups of 2 and 3, whoever gave it!

[Jay]

Great thread guys, with alot of great info here.

I can count odd meters, write in odd meters (to some extent), but my problem arises in telling what time a tune is in. In conventional rock, I can tell the meter no matter what, no difficulty for me there. But lately I've gotten heavily into the Flecktones (though as of yet, I'm new to them without much knowledge of them). I've been trying to become accustomed to the meters in which they play, but I'm having a bit of difficulty feeling the groove sometimes.

Can anyone give me tips, in general, on how to find the beat in an odd-metered song?

I'm trying to figure out exactly how to apply the info in this thread to figuring out meters.

[embellisher]

Again, everyone, thanks for your help. I am trying to absorb this, but it is a slow process.