Time: Innate or Acquired

Bass_Bear · #1 02-01-2009, 09:25 AM

So this post is two fold. Firstly to vent some frustration about my rhythm guitard who can't even keep time to something simple like 'Rock You Like A Hurricane'. And second to ask if you guys believe time is innate or acquired, in other words, are you born with a sense of time you can 'feel' or can you learn it over time with the help of tools such as metronome, etc.?

Also, how the hell do I tell a friend with an ego that he really isn't as great as he thinks, and that he isn't above lessons and training videos?

Okay rant over, time: innate or acquired? Tell me your reasoning.

Cheers,
J

Nerotic · #2 02-01-2009, 10:01 AM

For me timing is indeed an ability that I have had to train very hard. I'm not a gifted musician at all, but I enjoy playing music and that's why I haven't quit!

From my perspective, in depends on the individual how musically intelligent they are, and thus how good they inherently are at keeping time

EggnogJunkie · #3 02-01-2009, 10:39 AM

Well.... Some people have it and some don't. I think if somebody isn't terrible they can learn with a little work, but some people there's simply no help for. I know a few rhythm
guitarists who wouldn't know rhythm if it came up to them and whacked them in the face with a fax machine...

ysand · #4 02-01-2009, 10:39 AM

Is like many things, from being good in learning, to being good in a sport.
20% talent, 80% practice

emblymouse · #5 02-01-2009, 10:51 AM

All other things being equal, those with an internal sense of time will always be better players than those who have to train themselves to keep it straight. If it is instinctual you are free to mess around with it, you are able to 'see' it from a 360 degree prespective. There is so much more involved than being able to chop it up into equal parts.
But if it is not instinctual you won't understand what I'm talking about. It's like seeing a color that others don't.

jokn388 · #6 02-01-2009, 12:39 PM

I believe all rhythm is learned in one way or another. Some are exposed to rhythm as a kid and thus are able to seemingly "learn" rhythm much quicker than others. That doesn't mean that he has spent less time "learning"- rather he just was learning it indirectly. Maybe he tapped his foot to the music or played air drums as a kid. Or his parents exposed him to rhythmically complex music at an early age. Indirect practice is still practice. It doesn't mean they were born with any predestined notion of rhythm.

So if you have horrendous rhythm you just haven't spent enough time "practicing" throughout your life. It may take you longer to learn things but that's because you fell behind. You can catch up so to speak, but it'll take lot of work.

El-Bob · #7 02-01-2009, 12:44 PM

Some people have it, others don't, and some never will no matter how hard they try. sounds cold, but i have good reason to believe that there are some people who are just incapable of keeping time.

debassr · #8 02-01-2009, 12:46 PM

Staying in time is every musicians job, but I feel that keeping time accurately is the complete responsibility of the drummer. If you stay in time with the drummer most bassists will be just fine and I don't feel it's a very difficult task (unless really strange time signatures are being used). If it is, then I'd be wondering if that person was well suited to play an instrument at all. I believe if someone really can't stay in time or follow a beat there's not much you can do to change that unless they're just not paying attention or simply don't have enough practice which would cause them to focus too much on their fingering and plucking while losing the tempo. A simple test is to see if someone is capable is to just have them tap their foot along with a song *without* an instrument. If they can't, they're probably doomed - if they can (but can't while playing an instrument), they probably just need to get more comfortable playing bass.

MooseLumps · #9 02-01-2009, 12:53 PM

I'm another musician for the little of both theory. There are some students that just kick timing in the groin... and just a few of them who have done it since they were young. I feel that it's like hearing in pitch. Some people have it right since birth, others will work a lifetime and still be less than passable. I know I thank every god I know of for my tuner and metronome, but after years of practice I still drop the rhythm all the time. I also feel that you can learn to have perfect rhythm and pitch, or very nearly so.

GianGian · #10 02-01-2009, 01:03 PM

People can learn it. I remember when I started out I was totally tone deaf, I could learn a song by ear, even the most simple song. I just could hear the difference between a note and a another. I believe that rhythm works the same way. You can learn with hard work.

Jefenator · #11 02-01-2009, 01:25 PM

Some are born with awesome "time". I'd swap my perfect pitch for that if I could.

I had (and still have) to work on my meter but it's been well worth the effort. If I still had the kind of rhythm I had when I was 24, there's no way I'd be full-time freelancing now.

fdeck · #12 02-01-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bass_Bear

Also, how the hell do I tell a friend with an ego that he really isn't as great as he thinks, and that he isn't above lessons and training videos?

Record your rehearsals.

megadan · #13 02-01-2009, 03:18 PM

I remember sitting around in a circle in 10th grade Drama class and playing some clapping game. Everyone made fun of my lack of rhythm.

Now, 8 years later, I'm a drummer and a bassist!

backline112 · #14 02-01-2009, 06:05 PM

Some of it is in your genes, but it is also acquired.

A trained bassist can easily outperform a non-trained talented bassist.

vlxyooper · #15 02-01-2009, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by backline112

Some of it is in your genes, but it is also acquired.

Actually, it was in my courduroys. When I was a kid I had a paper route ...and I walked everywhere.

larry · #16 02-01-2009, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debassr

Staying in time is every musicians job, but I feel that keeping time accurately is the complete responsibility of the drummer.

Everyone has to know where the pocket is, and everyone has to contribute to it. Hanging on someone else's time might get you by, but it won't groove as hard.

Bass_Bear · #17 02-01-2009, 08:53 PM

After several beers and a very roller coaster like Superbowl, I've come to reinforce my own conclusions that time is something you have or you don't, it is possible to build it, but in my opinion you might hit a wall at some point. Whereas a person who understands time and rhythm clearly has an unlimited amount of growth potential.

J

Deacon_Blues · #18 02-02-2009, 02:23 AM

Some may seem to have it naturally, but IDK.. I think it's mostly an acquired skill.

Of course you first have to be technically skilled enough to play evenly so the technique isn't in the way. Other than that, good timing comes first and foremost from being able to feel the pulse in the music. You then can fine-tune your timing with a metronome.

Step · #19 02-02-2009, 02:36 AM

not to toot my own horn, but I think I have innate timing

my teacher always says to me: step, you've got the timing thing down
I never have to count measures, which sometimes leads to other problems
I also know bassists, guitarists without rhythm sense, and a bassist who learned it, so I believe it can be learned, but some people dont have to learn

and, pitch?

Fergie Fulton · #20 02-02-2009, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MotownBass

You can definitely learn time (NOT with a metronome), and you also IMHO have an innate sense for it, which is your own.

It is something we all have, some just develop it better than others and some don't develop it at all. ther are many ways of developing timing, playing with good drummers and other good players being the best.
You will learn to develop timing from a metronome if you understand its purpose and how to use one. One of the main reasons many who advocate not using one is because it show flaws in there playing and the don't work on those flaws they hide it in statements "its got no groove" or "its souless". Well its the player not the metronome thats playing the piece, so how does it become the fault of the metronome? Like a watch its soul purpose is to tell time, and when maintained and used correctly it will.

If you practise with a metronome remember you play along with it, not to it, and you have three options to choose, Play on the beat, before the beat, after the beat. By mixing these three up you will find the "groove" or "soul" that is said not to be found with a metronome, click track, drum machine, etc.