time signiture

[Slaphappypm]

I've been asked to write a lead riff starting off in 5/4. Simply there lies the problem itself. I've always played 4/4 and never had to go beyond it, is there an exercise or series of them that can help me get the idea of playing off time?

[chuck norriss]

Listen to Dave Brubeck.
Signature.

[Intenzity]

you can always divide time signatures like that into smaller sub-groups, so for 5/4 you can think of it as

2/4 + 3/4
or
3/4 + 2/4

You can usually tell where it naturally is sub-grouped, the melody or the chord changes will give it away.

So you can count 1,2,3 1,2 to get to five, or depending on how the rhythms are phrased it could be 1,2, 1, 2, 3, but either way 2 + 3 or 3 + 2 = 5.

The most famous brubeck example is probably "Blue Rondo Ala Turk" which is in 9 but instead of 1,2,3 + 1,2,3 + 1,2,3 = 9 he does 1,2 + 1,2 + 1,2 + 1,2,3, so three groups of 2 (3X2 = 6) and one group of 3 (6 + 3 = 9) to get to 9.

And for rock there is Rush, and pretty much any other neo-metal-shred band has some odd time signature tune in 5 or 7 or 11 or something like that, and they divide it up however they want - 2 + 3, 3 + 2, 2+2+3 etc.

[SeaBassTheFish]

What Intenzity said.

And I'll add that for asymmetrical meters like 5 and 7, it's more common in popular music to front-load it with the larger value, so that 5 usually feels like 3 + 2 and 7 usually feels like 4 + 3. Now that I've said that, someone will no doubt chime in with an exception, but nonetheless I find that to usually be the case. Or I should say that this has a more natural feel to it because it's like one full 'bar' with another not-quite full 'bar' appended to it. Proggers and jazzers can and do choose to play against that.

"Four Sticks" on Led Zeppelin 4 is another good example. It starts in 5/4 (3 + 2) and changes back and forth between 6/4 (3 + 3).
Led Zeppelin - Four Sticks - YouTube

Speaking of Brubeck, one of my favorites that they didn't even play very often is a tune called Eleven-Four, which of course is also the time signature. But it doesn't feel like 11. It feels like 5 + 6, or more locally, [3 + 2] + [3 + 3].
Dave

Radiohead's "Pyramid Song" is interesting. It has 16 beat phrases, but they're broken up into a symmetrical pattern of [3 + 2], 3, 3, [2 + 3], or 5, 3, 3, 5.
But the piano is playing dotted quarters over all the 3's (2 over 3), so you don't really feel the meter until the drums come in.
Radiohead - Pyramid Song - YouTube

One of the earliest examples of a groove in 5 that I know of (from the 1890's!):
Tchaikovsky's 6th symphony, mvt. 2:
Tchaikovsky - Symphony n.6 "Pathétique" [3/5, Allegro con grazia] - Temirkanov - YouTube

Anyway, good luck to you. The main point you should get from these examples is not that they have funny meters, but how smooth and fluid they sound despite the odd meter.

[taphappy]

I'll add, just as division is a great tool, so is multiplication. Considering 5/4 as 10/4, 15/4, etc, allows you to elongate your phrases (especially useful trick for drummers).

Anyhoo, gonna skew it with another perspective here...

I'd say listen to all that stuff they're talking about. It's bank. If you like a piece that they brought up, listen to it again and consider the math (Pyramid Song is VERY fun for this, especially when you consider the vocal line - if you notate, there's probably a great exercise in there). Give yourself a couple minutes to chill and digest, and when nothing's stuck in your head, find yourself a nice quiet place, sit.

Bob your head five times, accenting the one.
Repeat.
When you stop feeling like you look silly, and your body recognizes it as a natural rhythm, hum a line.
If you get something you like, pick up your bass and learn it.

Math is awesome, really helps when you get yourself in a jam (like this), especially if you end up playing in squirrely time signatures with squirrely people, or when you evaluate a piece of music to understand why you like it. Or why you don't!

But, I -try- not to use it as a first line of defense.

cough :)

[sammyp]

start by making up 5 quarter notes in a row that you like the sound of ......

once you have 5 .....add an 8th note to one of the beats ...like a doubled note or a new note ..say beat 5 for example.

so now you have 1 , 2 ,3 ,4 , 5 +

now take away a note ....maybe beat 4 and add an 8th note on beat 3

so now you'd have 1, 2, 3 +, rest , 5 + ......with the right combo of notes ....a simple groove like that will be pretty cool

once you are feelng the groove a bit you can say - make the + after beat 3 a 16th note...

1,2, 3e rest 5 +

[JP Morin]

Try listening to Meshuggah or Tool a bit... there's many example or polyrythmic or odd time signature

Here's how Justin Chancellor of Tool approach :

Interview with Justin Chancellor (TOOL's bass player) by Chris Ford (Chris "the enlightened one") on Myspace

[tstone]

Here's a classic 5/4 riff, by Lalo Schrifin:

Mission Impossible TV show theme song - YouTube

Note the rhythm: the bass parts are accented ONE and two AND three and FOUR and FIVE and...

[Lithius]

apple pineapple

[animvl]

Be careful not to get hooked on irregular time signatures... There's less money in it. That's why I'm poor.

Brubeck has been mentioned but I didn't notice anyone point you in the right direction as far as tracks go; Take Five is in 5/4.

[BassChuck]

Odd time signatures are really fun once you get used to them. In all cases the meters can be reduced to a series and 2's and 3's (and sometimes the odd 1, but that gets into the extreme). 5/4 would be 3+2 or 2+3. 7/4 would be 2+2+3 or 2+3+2 or 3+2+2. You get the idea. Tapping your foot to the different meters takes some time, cause the "3" is a longer tap than the 2.... but you can practice this anywhere anytime (well, some social events might not be the best... working out 33/4 time at a funeral is probably not a good choice).
Once you get used to the basic meters, in your case 5/4, tap and start humming or singing little riffs to that beat. The more you do the more 'flowing' the melodies you invent will become.

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[Bredian]

Foo Fighters - intro in 7/4 "Times Like These"

Foo Fighters - Times Like These - YouTube

The drummer plays a cue on "7"


Also some long ago jazz favorite - played this for a year in the mid 70s.

Don Ellis Band/Hank Levy - "Chain Reaction" 13/8 (123-123-12-12-123)

GREAT ORCH.-JAZZ: DON ELLIS - Chain Reaction (1972) - YouTube

Played Ellis/Levy charts for 4 years in high school, this was the king of the beasts. Most had odd time signatures.

[Muaguana]

Vicarious by Tool is mostly in 5/4. Might be good to study by listening to their phrasing.

Just for kicks, here's an example of a DSO song with a 15/8 verse, simply because it's awesome:
Diablo Swing Orchestra - Porcelain Judas - YouTube