Tone matters more on Bass than on Guitar?

b4nny · #1 01-21-2009, 12:50 AM

Is it just me is clean tone much more important with basses than it is with guitars? You always hear bassists (read: TalkBassists) discussing the best action, best rig, best body woods, et-cetera and how to punch through the rest of the band. There are tons of threads about how to get that "perfect tone" that we hear on our favorite records. Is it because guitars are more often distorted, and their clean tones are much less often heard? Because guitars are in the forefront and don't need a "cutting" tone, while bass is in the opposite situation?

JimmyM · #2 01-21-2009, 04:17 AM

No, it's because bass can get lost in a mix much easier than guitar. Treble frequencies are much easier and require much less power to amplify than bass frequencies, and all the other instruments have the ability to obliterate the bass if you let them. So we have to be a little more knowledgeable about tone just to make sure people can hear us.

Richard Lindsey · #3 01-21-2009, 08:02 AM

Well, no offense, but I don't think any explanation is needed or even possible, because IMO your impression is mistaken in the first place. I've never seen any reason to think bassists are more obsessed with tone in general or clean tone in particular than guitarists are. You haven't lived until you've witnessed a bunch of guitar players talking about the tonal effects of brass screws in the pickguard as opposed to steel screws or something. (I say this with a measure of love, as a guitarist myself.) If we spent as much time on guitar boards as on bass ones we'd see easily as much tone discussion, if not indeed far more.

tranceFusion · #4 01-21-2009, 08:19 AM

Regardless of anything else, I think the assumption about guitars usually being distorted is incorrect. Their are many large genres of music which healthily exist without distortion.

agreatheight · #5 01-21-2009, 08:23 AM

Wow - if you think we are bad here at talkbass, you should have a look over at thegearpage.net. Trust me, many guitarists are INSANE about equipment and tone.

geoff_in_nc · #6 01-21-2009, 08:31 AM

I've got to second and third the comments about guitarists being obsessive to the point of silliness, about tone. That's why theres a bajillion boutique amp makers all making variations of the same old Fender/Marshall designs (because they were solid designs to begin with... and early Marshalls being variants of the original Fender Bassmans). I say this as a "recovering" guitarist, obsessed with tone, converted to bass.

In my (relatively inexperienced) opinion (worth exactly what you're paying for it) its easier to hear treble frequencies than bass... you feel good bass... so as someone mentioned above, cutting thru the mix is so important.

I dunno... I just make this up as I go along....

excane · #7 01-21-2009, 08:40 AM

Didn't I read somewhere years ago that Eric Johnson claims he can tell what brand of batteries are in an effect pedal? Riiiggghhttt....

mozarwasagenius · #8 01-21-2009, 08:42 AM

I can assure you every guitarist I've played with and most I know are just as obsessed with tone as people on this forum are. However, the guitar tone is often focused on finding the perfect distortion/crunch/fuzz etc.

SteveC · #9 01-21-2009, 08:45 AM

It's because g****r players run so many effects that it doesn't matter what their basic tone is as it is so completely altered.

uaudio · #10 01-21-2009, 08:50 AM

Sounds like you have a case of the selection biases. Like everyone's said, spend 30 seconds reading thegearpage or any other guitar forum and you'll see us crazy people are everywhere.

Ron Plichta · #11 01-21-2009, 08:54 AM

Guitarists and bassists differ when it comes to the instrument itself. Guitarists "generally" seem to gravitate around one of the Fender/Gibson/PRS brands or variants thereof. Ash, mahogany, alder and maple seem to be the predominant woods with VERY few having active onboard electronics. Bassists can be open to different electronics and wood combinations.

Amplifiers, as stated above, tend to vary little from the Fender/Marshall/Vox blueprint save for the drivers used. Outside of the SVT, there is not much of a legacy amp to go on and amp makers seem to search for their own tone.

The bulk of the guitarists' tweaking comes from the effects pedals. A former guitarist in one band had an effects board that could have doubled as a coffee table top.

Richard Lindsey · #12 01-21-2009, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Plichta

The bulk of the guitarists' tweaking comes from the effects pedals.

Not at all IME. Sure, that's a big part of it for some players, but overall they (we) really spend more time comparing different PUs--it really wouldn't be uncommon to find somebody who's tried a dozen or more different sets of Strat PUs in one guitar--different tubes, different pots, different tremolo blocks, different bridges, different woods, different frets, different neck thicknesses, and perhaps most obsessively, all those things connected with different flavors of amp, including circuitry, speakers, capacitors, and even wire.

I don't go that way so much myself, but I know of plenty who do.

onlyclave · #13 01-21-2009, 09:29 AM

As a flute player here in the Music Theory forum, your bass tone doesn't mean anything to me. Can we get this thread moved?

edbass · #14 01-21-2009, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Plichta

Amplifiers, as stated above, tend to vary little from the Fender/Marshall/Vox blueprint save for the drivers used. Outside of the SVT, there is not much of a legacy amp to go on and amp makers seem to search for their own tone.

While the SVT is pretty much accepted as the benchmark of "bass" tone, there are plenty of legacy amps that are bass related or even bass specific.
The mentioned Fender/Marshall/Vox have if not bass specific, some circuits that lend themselves very well to bass guitar.
Anyone remember Sunn? Sunn produced several bass specific tube models that are/were absolute tone monsters for bass guitar.
The Brits in particular generally produced amplifiers that just amplify, not bass or guitar specific. Usually the largest of these all purpose amps (Marshall Major, Hiwatt DR201, etc.) saw duty as bass amps, generally because of the higher "headroom" requirements to accurately reproduce the lower frequency bass signal.
Dave Reeves designed excellent tube circuits that work exceptionally well for bass, most notably his work with Sound City and then founding Hiwatt. Not the traditional SVT tone, but a cleaner, less colored tone. Different, but still legacy worthy in my book.
Tone is in the ear of the beholder, and effects can be cool, but personally IMO the over processed, transistor distorted, mistake hiding, digital sounding sterile bass “tone” is way too prevalent today.
I much prefer a bass tone that is more influenced by the player’s hands and technique than by what box they happen to stomp on.

JimmyM · #15 01-21-2009, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onlyclave

As a flute player here in the Music Theory forum, your bass tone doesn't mean anything to me. Can we get this thread moved?

Ya, maybe they should move it to "General Instruction."

Anyway, as a doubler, I see a lot of people have misconceptions about guitar. First off, the tone comes from you no matter what instrument you play or what effects you have. Second, even though some guitarists do get all anal about their gear, most that I know aren't so bad once they get their gear in order. Third, there is no third. Fourth, with all instruments, there is a time to get anal and a time to plug in and rock. The time to plug in and rock is coming for me after a 4 hour drive, so I better get going

Richard Lindsey · #16 01-21-2009, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Fourth, with all instruments, there is a time to get anal and a time to plug in and rock.

Absolutely. My point was simply that bassists are no more anal about their gear/tone than guitarists are. Personally, I think some of both groups can obsess about this stuff more than is useful, but both groups also contain people who have the sense not to fall too far into this obsession.

BillMason · #17 01-21-2009, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Well, no offense, but I don't think any explanation is needed or even possible, because IMO your impression is mistaken in the first place. I've never seen any reason to think bassists are more obsessed with tone in general or clean tone in particular than guitarists are. You haven't lived until you've witnessed a bunch of guitar players talking about the tonal effects of brass screws in the pickguard as opposed to steel screws or something. (I say this with a measure of love, as a guitarist myself.) If we spent as much time on guitar boards as on bass ones we'd see easily as much tone discussion, if not indeed far more.

+1 - guitarists IME, in general anyway, are very much more anal about tone than most bass players. My guitarists are the exceptions, and IMO they should actually be *more* concerned than they are.

DocBop · #18 01-21-2009, 10:09 AM

I read these forums and think people work more on tone than what they are playing. If what you are playing is strong enough then tone is of minor importance.

Also being I worked in a couple music schools and seen many great players grab any instrument or amp and make it sound great. It's mainly your hands and ear that make the gear sound good not the other way around.

Deacon_Blues · #19 01-21-2009, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBop

If what you are playing is strong enough then tone is of minor importance.

Also being I worked in a couple music schools and seen many great players grab any instrument or amp and make it sound great. It's mainly your hands and ear that make the gear sound good not the other way around.

+1000000

On topic: I consider guitarists being much worse toneaholics than bassists though.

Richard Lindsey · #20 01-21-2009, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocBop

I read these forums and think people work more on tone than what they are playing. If what you are playing is strong enough then tone is of minor importance.

+1. That's why it always bugs me when people (mostly amateur guitarists IME, but not all) try to claim that tone is "everything" or "the most important thing." It's not. Sure, everybody tries to get good tone, the best they reasonably can, but there's so much more to playing than that.

I once had a guitarist tell me he'd rather listen to a mediocre guitarist with what he considered great tone than a great guitarist with what he considered mediocre tone. Different strokes for different folks, I guess, but I thought, and still think, that was nuts. Tone is only part of the equation, and not even the most important one.

(Deep down, I wonder if this overemphasis on tone, in some but not all cases, might happen in part because people believe it's inherently more within their reach than excellent playing is--that it's something anyone can have. That is, some may feel they can at least buy good tone, if they just spend enough money or acquire exactly the right piece of gear, whereas they know they can't buy talent or hard work.)