Too much practice?

[Sean Ormiston]

Hm. I wonder: does Meshell Ndegeocello practice all the scales in all the keys?

I've been thinking about how so much of what makes music good is in things that never get communicated in the "study" of it. Spontaneity, openness, "feeling the moment," telepathy with your mates, and just going off the deep end. Believing there are no mistakes. Saying something! Art! Get into it, man!

Among my rock musician friends I'm the only one who knows squat worth of theory. I have to, because bassists are supposed to hear just about anything and get bouncing with it. But I almost never end up writing anything of my own...I spend all my time at "study". Passionate study! But still study.

I have two guitarists friends who are almost 100% AGAINST the study of music theory. It can be extremely difficult to play with them, but their music is really something special because it's basically the sum of every sound they've figured out how to make on their own. And they experiment with that a lot. They've avoided being conquered by a system, by creating their own from the ground up! Sure, theory can explain and legitimize their sonic vocabulary, but it's useless at that point. They've already begun to CREATE with it.

Any thoughts on this? The dangers of becoming a "reductionist" through music theory?

- Sean Ormiston

Still working on that signature. I'll think of something. OOh. Here's a start:

Fender Jazz Bass
Ampeg BR100
Upright Eberle laminated

[bburk]

if you are going to break the rules, you first need to know what they are.

[Sarbecue Boss]

+1

I am a bigtime advocator of lots and lots of practice, and I believe the right kind of practice will not stifle creativity, but enhance it.
When it comes to creative practice, vic wooten is the man

[Dr. Cheese]

Don't let your friends talk you out of serious study. When it comes to truly great musicians, the great majority have seriously studied music, either formally or on their own with occassional pointers from fellow musicians.

There are always stories about someone like Pino Pallidino, who is largely untutored and plays by ear, he is the exception, not the rule. The great majority of us do not have the talent to do what he does, with or without study.

[Andrew Jones]

2 sides of the coin. What you friends do is VERY important,So is what your doing.Perhaps you can learn from each other?

Perhaps you already have.


Maby you "have to" learn the rules before you break them but you definetly have to practice breaking them to get good at it.



Aj

[steveb98]

Most people forget even practice needs to be musical. Sure playing scales in eighth note gets boring fast, but how long does it take to learn the pattern. Once you have the pattern now try to make music with it. Change the rhythm, start on different notes, play scale in intervals, play the arpeggios that come from the scale. Got all that then compose or improvise with it. Figure out how to make music with it. Now play the next key in same position on the neck. Okay you playing different things now that the fingering changed. Play two related scales as if soloing over two chord changes. What notes work good to target as your connecting tone when changing scales. See you can practice you scales without just doing the all the notes in sequence in a straight rhythm. Your practice needs to be as musical as your playing on stage.

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by Sean Ormiston

I have two guitarists friends who are almost 100% AGAINST the study of music theory. It can be extremely difficult to play with them, but their music is really something special because it's basically the sum of every sound they've figured out how to make on their own. And they experiment with that a lot. They've avoided being conquered by a system, by creating their own from the ground up! Sure, theory can explain and legitimize their sonic vocabulary, but it's useless at that point. They've already begun to CREATE with it.

I wish I had a dollar for every musician I've known like these guys. I've sure they sound impressive, but can they deal in a musical situation that they haven't created? What will they do when they run out of ideas? Can they cop licks from other peoples music and then turn it into something new and special?

Please don't read this post as a 'downer'. They just might be the next great thing that will set music on its ears and point to a new direction. Could be. Or they might be using their stance on knowledge to justify their strenghts and hide their weaknesses.

Studying music theory won't hurt you.... it will show you a whole world of ideas, history, and music. Your creativity will be stronger for it. Or... if it just happens to destroy creativity, at least you'll have the knowledge you need to get gigs with other bands. You can't lose.

[cowsgomoo]

Originally Posted by Sean Ormiston

Hm. I wonder: does Meshell Ndegeocello practice all the scales in all the keys?

I've been thinking about how so much of what makes music good is in things that never get communicated in the "study" of it. Spontaneity, openness, "feeling the moment," telepathy with your mates, and just going off the deep end. Believing there are no mistakes. Saying something! Art! Get into it, man!

Among my rock musician friends I'm the only one who knows squat worth of theory. I have to, because bassists are supposed to hear just about anything and get bouncing with it. But I almost never end up writing anything of my own...I spend all my time at "study". Passionate study! But still study.

I have two guitarists friends who are almost 100% AGAINST the study of music theory. It can be extremely difficult to play with them, but their music is really something special because it's basically the sum of every sound they've figured out how to make on their own. And they experiment with that a lot. They've avoided being conquered by a system, by creating their own from the ground up! Sure, theory can explain and legitimize their sonic vocabulary, but it's useless at that point. They've already begun to CREATE with it.

Any thoughts on this? The dangers of becoming a "reductionist" through music theory?

what you're basically talking about is people with a good ear and a developed personal aesthetic sense and their own internal sense of musical organization feeling they don't require traditional music theory knowledge because they're happy with what they're doing...

well as far as i'm concerned, if they're happy doing what they're doing, that's fine by me

but to be practical, as a bass player your job is usually to be able to recognize what other people are doing and play something that fits with it... and it's a lot easier to do that if you have a traditional framework to make sense of what they're doing.... even if they don't know exactly what they're doing in a traditional sense

and I believe your ear doesn't lose its own unique way of enjoying your particular idiosyncratic tastes... just because you understand the theory behind music doesn't mean you'll start only enjoying inoffensive 'sophisticated' smooth jazz or other bland 'musical' muso material... what actually happens is that you can identify more quickly why you like a particular bit of music and be able to repeat it at will... a lot easier than stumbling around in the dark hoping to get lucky again

I think it's like if you were a food chemist type person who knew all about tastebuds and the chemical reasons behind why people liked chocolate & burgers etc... this knowledge wouldn't stop you enjoying food or stop you being able to 'switch off the knowledge' and just cook for the fun of it

people who refuse to learn theory for this reason are just excusers... it's fine to not learn theory if you're happy with the way things are but all this 'it would stifle my creativity' is nonsense

as is claiming you don't have time to create music because you're too busy practicing... sorry

[vindy500]

i dont study music theory, it bores me. ive picked a lot off just reading posts here though

[mattblissett]

Theory gives you the means to express yourself, and I feel that I am a more creative player for the little I have picked up to date, because I can be musical and creative, in the proper context.

[mellofello]

it does always amaze me what some guys can do with no theory. For me the goal of study and theory is to get to the point where I know it so well I can apply it in a natural way without consciously thinking about it. So in that way I am going to the same place as your friends, but on a different path. The real problem is if I am playing with your friends, and I say "I think something mixolydian would fit there" what are they going to do ? It just makes it easier to communicate if you speak the same language.

[Sean Ormiston]

Originally Posted by mellofello

The real problem is if I am playing with your friends, and I say "I think something mixolydian would fit there" what are they going to do ? It just makes it easier to communicate if you speak the same language.

Strange thing is, if I played a mixolydian scale for him, he'd imitate it instantly. He knows he's heard it before. Which goes to show, it IS the same language. it's just that if he's messing with a mixolydian scale chances are he's gonna have a "song idea" come out of it before he puts down his guitar.

Cowsgomoo,

Frankly, you've said everything that I wanted to hear, with appropiate wit and gusto (seriously.) But for sake of argument consider this: some people (I really am thinking guitarists here) pick up their instrument JUST to express themselves with it. The study of music, for them, would become a chore that is external to what they're doing and therefore would "stifle" their creativity. I think we've all heard some extremely touching music that's made by these types of heads.

I will certainly agree however, that it's too hit or miss to make a profession out of it. It's a roll of the dice.

You say it's nonsense to "not have time to create music becuase you're too busy practicing." I agree with you, but I need to know more. I guess, for me, I'm so concious of my practicing that I don't really walk away with a song idea. I don't think "ooh, this sounds like...." and so begins a creative chain process. I just think "mmhmm. The tasty world of the half-diminished scale. I'm sure I'll visit it again. Gotta be done by three o clock. Next scale."

It seems like creative practice is what I need. Someone mentioned Vic Wooten in that regard...does he have a book on it or something?

- Sean Ormiston

"Infinite boiling softens the stone." - Zen thingee, out of an Aebersold book!

[joegeezer]

I wish I would have learned to read, at least, when I was younger. At 53, I think I'm way too late now. I know nothing at all about theory. But as far as practice time, I find that sometimes, if I lay off for a day or two, I come back hotter than ever, after not touching the bass for a while. I find myself listening to the tunes better, when I lay off a day or two, then I can pick the bass up, and that lick I was looking for, seems to just jump out of me. Seems a few days off really helps sometimes. Anybody else work that way?

[thumpbass1]

Knowledge is power and knowing some theory and also being
able to sight read music is only going to help any player.
You won't lose any creative abilities and in fact it will help
because you'll know how to translate what you're creating
in your heart and mind to your instrument far quicker.
Getting some music education is always good.

[threshar]

Originally Posted by Sean Ormiston

Strange thing is, if I played a mixolydian scale for him, he'd imitate it instantly. He knows he's heard it before. Which goes to show, it IS the same language. it's just that if he's messing with a mixolydian scale chances are he's gonna have a "song idea" come out of it before he puts down his guitar.

One of my pals majored in music at school so he's a big theory guy. I'm not. he told me "You k now, you really do know a LOT more theory than you realize, you just don't know the names of the things you know". I think in your pal's case it is the same thing - he knows a lot but doesn't know the technical terms for it. Billy Sheehan freely admits he's in that boat too, and he's an incredible player.

As for practice, I think you shouldn't play scales & arpeggios all the time. Play them a bit, but you need to spend a lot of time simply playing tunes. But that is just me.

[mjbing]

Originally Posted by joegeezer

I wish I would have learned to read, at least, when I was younger. At 53, I think I'm way too late now. I know nothing at all about theory. But as far as practice time, I find that sometimes, if I lay off for a day or two, I come back hotter than ever, after not touching the bass for a while. I find myself listening to the tunes better, when I lay off a day or two, then I can pick the bass up, and that lick I was looking for, seems to just jump out of me. Seems a few days off really helps sometimes. Anybody else work that way?

Geezer

Yes
I do that also

MJ

[All_¥our_Bass]

If anything I've become much more creative because I know theory. I can make my very "outside" phrasing work because of this.

[scorpionldr]

i think he's got a good point. personally i find theory stifling as well, and I've learned it! when all is said and done, i'm writing now, but instead of going "yea! that was cool! ok, this time, we're gona up the tempo, and change a few intervals!" i'm going "yea....ok, let's see.....this minor third i'm playing off of a d string's A, connecting to the G string's C.......yea.......ok, now to figure how to shift it". it bores me now i know what i'm doing

[PocketGroove82]

Originally Posted by Sean Ormiston

does Meshell Ndegeocello practice all the scales in all the keys?

I bet she has.

[Chunk-O-Funk]

Originally Posted by Sean Ormiston

I have two guitarists friends who are almost 100% AGAINST the study of music theory. It can be extremely difficult to play with them, but their music is really something special because it's basically the sum of every sound they've figured out how to make on their own. And they experiment with that a lot. They've avoided being conquered by a system, by creating their own from the ground up! Sure, theory can explain and legitimize their sonic vocabulary, but it's useless at that point. They've already begun to CREATE with it.

Any thoughts on this? The dangers of becoming a "reductionist" through music theory?

This approach will only work if you want to be a "rock star" or equivalent. Throw them in any other musical situation that doesn't cater to them and my bet is they will fall flat.

The only question you have to ask yourself is what do you want to be. A musician or a rock star.

As far as being a reductionist or a rock star. It really comes down to talent for both. I think Victor Wooten put it best when he said music theory is like learning a language. Lets say you happen to run into one of these truly talented rock stars. Do you think they have lived up to their full potential without being able to speak the language.