Totally puzzled-Minor scales to what do i need to know

[JOE_MARSH]

Ok..so I have been studying a ton of music stufff lately...And just when I thought I had it all figured out...A wrench just got thrown my way...Now Im not sure if its someone just explaining it to me incorrectly, or they are right and I just totally dont undestand... Let me try and explain....

Ok.. IF you are in "F" Major...and you want to play the natural minor scale found in "F" Major( count to the 6th degree) which would be F-g-a-B-C-*d* So d minor is the 6th

so what was explained to me is that Im having trouble undestanding....If Im in "d" minor...your really in "F" Major, just on the 6th degree(Everybody following me?) so when the Degree's change up... They change to

1-2-3-4-5-6-7
d-e-F-g-a-B-C

Is this right? OK..in one sense..I understand this..but in my head im like still trying to grasp it all... The aeolion mode moves the degree of the scale...which changes the placement--If I change the placement...Im no longer in "F"major...Im in d minor...

This goes back to the whole...E phrygian is really C Maj 3rd type of deal

I hope people can help me understand this..Cause im totally lost now... Thanks in advance for your time

[JOE_MARSH]

The only reason Im asking this is because, it seems like, if the degrees re-adjust...then to me ..that signals that im still in "F" Major, just a different degree of it..but why would it adjust if your still in "F" Major? I whould think you would get out of "d" minor and go back to your main Key signature?

[Toronto Bassist]

First off, it should be a Bb in your example, not a B.

And essentially D Aeolian has the same notes as F Major, it just starts on D.

[JTE]

A diatonic major scale is W W H W W W H, so A major is A B C# D E F# G# A.
A natural minor scale is W H W W H W W, so A natrual minor is A B C D E F G.

The relative minor to a major scale is the natural minor starting on the 6th. Note that the notes of A nat. minor are the same as the notes of C major. A minor is the relative minor of C major. The relative minor of A major is F# minor. And the relative minor of F major is D minor. Build the scales using the whole-step and half-step formulae to make sure you get this. You don't need to memorize them, but you gotta know how to figure them out on your own.

John

[FunkMetalBass]

The numbering is really unimportant except for referencing a certain degree of a mode or scale.

For example:
A ionian - A B C# D E F# G# (I ii iii IV V vi vii°)
C# phrygian - C# D E F# G# A B (i II III iv v° VI vii)

It's almost more confusing to look at if from a degree-shift point of view, but that's the truth in how it's done. If it makes more sense, try counting the C# phrygian like so:
iii IV V vi vii° I ii

Just to get an idea for the tonality of each degree until you learn them fully.

[countrybassist]

Originally Posted by JOE_MARSH

Ok..so I have been studying a ton of music stufff lately...And just when I thought I had it all figured out...A wrench just got thrown my way...


Thanks in advance for your time

You thought that you had ALL of music theory figured out and your stuck on the realtionship between M and m? There's alot more to it than that bro. Anyways, keep it up

[Fergie Fulton]

Try some tetrachord theory on scale construction to see if it helps. Here are two links, but search for more if need be.

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ogId=471294234

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ogId=471297164

[JOE_MARSH]

ok guys I know this..I was just showing you in text format how I was thinking..I know its a Bb... Can we all try and focus on the real problem at hand...I already know the relative minors to each key/root starting point..that is so easy...

what I think im trying to figure out is the chord voicings for the harmonic minor and melodic minor scales

So to me..this makes total sense with the Major Scale-obviously 7th is dim
1- 2- 3-4-5 -6- 7
M-m-m-M-M-m-m dim


So when I hear F Major.. I auto know
Fmaj-gm-am-BMaj-CMaj-dm-em dim you feel me?

but with the voicings for chords on the Harmonic Minor? Does it really work this way?

1st-minor
2nd-Dim
3rd-Aug
4th-min
5th-min
6th-Maj
7th-dim

Melodic minor
1st-min
2nd-min
3rd-aug
4th-Maj
5th-Maj
6th-dim
7th-dim

Is this right?

[JOE_MARSH]

Ok..so what FunkMetal Bassist is saying really helps...So the tonality(aka the root or main key you start in) determines where everything goes/shifts to within what your playing

[JOE_MARSH]

So basically..everything relates back to the major scale... What is minor in your orignal key..will stay minor in your new mode/scale that you switch to?

[JOE_MARSH]

AHHH...ok now it makes sense...In my head..Im like should not be Maj..but minor because it was minor in the original key... But I see how it works now

This is from Funkmetal Bassist post above

_{For example:
A ionian - A B C# D E F# G# (I ii iii IV V vi vii°)
C# phrygian - C# D E F# G# A B (i II III iv v° VI vii)}

^{It's almost more confusing to look at if from a degree-shift point of view, but that's the truth in how it's done. If it makes more sense, try counting the C# phrygian like so:
iii IV V vi vii° I ii}

[Toronto Bassist]

Yes, it's the same. With melodic minor, you can build a chord off of each degree in the scale.

So for example, in D melodic minor, it would look like:

Dm(maj7)
Em7
Faj7#5
G7
A7
Bm7
C#m7

[JOE_MARSH]

This is getting so confusing to me..Ive got it, and then I lose it...My mental stability is having a hard time understanding all of this

So in terms of scale degrees

C Major
C-d-e-F-G-a-b

Reltv minor= A minor
a-b-C-d-e-F-G

Harmonic Minor
a-b-C-d-e-F-G#

Melodic Minor
a-b-C-d-e-F#-G#


Did I just really get this?

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by JOE_MARSH

The only reason Im asking this is because, it seems like, if the degrees re-adjust...then to me ..that signals that im still in "F" Major, just a different degree of it..but why would it adjust if your still in "F" Major? I whould think you would get out of "d" minor and go back to your main Key signature?

No, you're NOT still in F when you're in D minor. They're different keys. They share a key signature (for convenience), and they're related (in the sense that D minor is the relative minor of F major), but they're not the same. When you're in D minor, you're not in some "degree" of F, and F is not your "main" key. You are in D minor, and D is your home note and D minor your main key.

I think this is the whole problem with getting into modes too early and getting into the whole degree-of-the-major-scale thing without a firm basis of understanding.

I'd suggest forgetting about modes for now (not permanently) and getting deeper into your basic major and minor tonality.

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by FunkMetalBass

The numbering is really unimportant except for referencing a certain degree of a mode or scale.

For example:
A ionian - A B C# D E F# G# (I ii iii IV V vi vii°)
C# phrygian - C# D E F# G# A B (i II III iv v° VI vii)

It's almost more confusing to look at if from a degree-shift point of view, but that's the truth in how it's done. If it makes more sense, try counting the C# phrygian like so:
iii IV V vi vii° I ii

Just to get an idea for the tonality of each degree until you learn them fully.

Why are you using roman numerals to refer to scale degrees? Those would imply chords (unless of course, you are talking about chords and I'm misunderstanding).

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

Why are you using roman numerals to refer to scale degrees? Those would imply chords (unless of course, you are talking about chords and I'm misunderstanding).

Well, you can use Roman numerals for scale degrees, but they should be either all uppercase or all lowercase, since a single note in a scale can't be either major or minor on its own (those being functions of chords or intervals). You're right, though: to avoid confusion Arabic numerals (as my old Mel Bay books preferred) would be better.

[JOE_MARSH]

No, you're NOT still in F when you're in D minor. They're different keys. They share a key signature (for convenience), and they're related (in the sense that D minor is the relative minor of F major), but they're not the same. When you're in D minor, you're not in some "degree" of F, and F is not your "main" key. You are in D minor, and D is your home note and D minor your main key.

Ok...I knew from the beginning that I was not going to be F major when I am in D minor


I think this is the whole problem with getting into modes too early and getting into the whole degree-of-the-major-scale thing without a firm basis of understanding.

Ok..im not trying to read into your statement...but just to be honest..this totally came off like you being a dick to me...So when would be a good time to learn modes? Im here on the site..trying to learn..if you know so much...actually explain some stuff to me...give me some examples...


I'd suggest forgetting about modes for now (not permanently) and getting deeper into your basic major and minor tonality.

Can I get an example? Im here on the site cause ever single person I try to talk to has no clue what they are talking about

Everybody..Im not trying to argue or be ridiculed on here for trying to learn..but its starting to seem like a lot of people just post answers and not even attempt to answer my questions

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by JOE_MARSH

No, you're NOT still in F when you're in D minor. They're different keys. They share a key signature (for convenience), and they're related (in the sense that D minor is the relative minor of F major), but they're not the same. When you're in D minor, you're not in some "degree" of F, and F is not your "main" key. You are in D minor, and D is your home note and D minor your main key.

Ok...I knew from the beginning that I was not going to be F major when I am in D minor


I think this is the whole problem with getting into modes too early and getting into the whole degree-of-the-major-scale thing without a firm basis of understanding.

Ok..im not trying to read into your statement...but just to be honest..this totally came off like you being a dick to me...So when would be a good time to learn modes? Im here on the site..trying to learn..if you know so much...actually explain some stuff to me...give me some examples...


I'd suggest forgetting about modes for now (not permanently) and getting deeper into your basic major and minor tonality.

Can I get an example? Im here on the site cause ever single person I try to talk to has no clue what they are talking about

Everybody..Im not trying to argue or be ridiculed on here for trying to learn..but its starting to seem like a lot of people just post answers and not even attempt to answer my questions

Nobody's ridiculing you, and I'm not trying to be a dick. Not my intent at all.

What I'm telling you is that IMO the take you're bringing to this is not entirely a productive one. I think you're putting the cart before the horse, and getting in your own way a little.

Be aware--and this is in no way your fault--that you're kind of coming into a conversation, or a set of conversations, that's been going on for a while. Sometimes people are reluctant to repeat once again things they've said many times.

My first suggestion would be that you do a search, specifically focusing on some of the theory links in the stickies at the top of the page. There's a fellow on here named Stumbo who's a whiz at collecting relevant links to threads.

My second would be to reread JTE's post above. And to look for some posts by a guy named HaVIC5 on minor tonality.

My third would be to find a good reference on basic major and minor tonality that explains harmonic function in some fundamental way. Book, website, CD, whatever. If it gets you into modes on page 2, throw it away. Start with major and minor. I haven't used this particular book:

http://www.edly.com/toc.html

But some people here whom I respect speak highly of it.

[JOE_MARSH]

Richard..thanks for explaining...Ive been reading the theory links for a few weeks now..Ive figured out a ton of stuff..Its just starting to get more frustrating because a lot of the questions I have...no one can really answer...And then the threads either dont touch on what im asking..or they go in a different direction from what is being explained

Id like to think Im a well rounded musician..I play a few instruments but I am now just getting into the theory aspect of it all... And im in this stage where the light bulb is turning on...but i have questions because i feel like i am so close to Getting IT...

[MalcolmAmos]

Relative to the F Major scale was the stumbling block in the OP. A quick look at modes may show how "relative to" works.

Modes - confusing until the light come on.
Ionian would be these notes F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F
Dorian would be these notes G, A, Bb, C, D, E, F, G
Phrygian would be these notes A, Bb, C, D, E, F, G, A
etc, etc, etc, relative to the Major Scale you started with.

Relative to the F Major Scale was the stumbling block in the OP.

In relative modes the "key" (tonic) changes , but, the notes stay the same. Modes of the F major scale. Now in paralell modes the tonic stays the same and the notes change. Do a Google on pitch axis. I moved over to paralell modes years ago, once I understood paralell I never went back to relative. Parallel is so much easier to understand - and to use.

Parallel to what, well major modes are parallel (based) upon the Major scale. and..... minor modes are parallel, based upon the natural minor scale. So Ionian is based upon Major scale (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7), to get Lydian you sharp the 4th and to get Mixolydian you flat the 7th. That just seems simpler to me.

Aeolian is based upon the natural minor scale - the natural minor scale when compared to the major scale has these notes; 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7. Dorian just takes the 6 back to a natural note. Phrygian flats the 2nd. Locrian should you ever use it flats the 2nd and the 5th.

Ask yourself relative to what or paralell to what.