Trinotes, Diminished 5ths and the Blues Scale

[HeavyFingers]

After watching a recent documentary (Metal: A Headbanger's Journey - which is very good by the way) I was informed by Alex Webster of Cannibal Corpse (who's newest album "KILL" is perhaps one of thier best ) that one of the ways that they create their "evil" Death Metal sound is by using trinotes, Diminished 5ths and the Blues Scale. In order to improve my understanding of this technical jargon, I have a question or two about these.

First off does the Blues Scale contain a "natural" diminished 5th? (diminished only means moving down 1 fret, right?)

So, if a Trinote would be considered going from G to C, then a trinote tabbed out could look like this:
-------------------------
-------------------------
-----3-------------------
---3---------------------
Correct?

If that is the case then wouldn't combining a trinote and a diminished 5th in the blues scale look like this:

-----------------------
-----------------------
-----3-4---------------
---3-------------------

Yes? No? Moo?

[BOOCAKE4U]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminished_fifth

[HeavyFingers]

Thanks, some good info. So, if I were playing the blues scale in F playing the Tritone would look like :
(tabbed out)
--|--------
--|-----3--
--|1------
--|------------
(A# to F)

or
--|------------
--|-----3------
--|--2--------
--|-------
(B to F)

(Based on what wiki said about the tritone occuring between the 3rd and 7th of the scale and 4th and 7th of the scale (although the 3rd and 7th were the only ones that worked inversed as welll)).

Am I correct?

[DaemonBass]

Also called the flat 5, this interval was once actually banned from being playing in churches and is also known as the "devils interval" or some such nonsense.

The prime example I can think of using the flat 5 is Black Sabbath by Black Sabbath. I that song they play Root (A i think), Octave of Root, then flat-5. That is the main riff of the song.

Basically if you have a regular 5th in a major scale you just flat it (one fret lower). Here's the black sabbath riff

--------------
------7-------
----------6~-
--5-----------

[Grimlock]

i) "Black Sabbath" by Black Sabbath is, in fact in A.

ii) The Blues scale is just a Minor Pentatonic Scale with the added flat 5. See below:


A Minor Pentatonic A Minor Blues
G:------------- -------------------
D:---------5-7- -----------5-7-----
A:-----5-7----- -----5-6-7---------
E:-5-8--------- -5-8---------------

iii) The most popular use of the tritone is the V7, or Dominant 7th chord. For example, in the key of C Major, that would be the G7 chord (G-B-D-F). The B and F (3rd and Minor 7th) are a Tritone.

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by HeavyFingers

Thanks, some good info. So, if I were playing the blues scale in F playing the Tritone would look like :
(tabbed out)
--|--------
--|-----3--
--|1------
--|------------
(A# to F)

That's a perfect 5th.

or
--|------------
--|-----3------
--|--2--------
--|-------
(B to F)

(Based on what wiki said about the tritone occuring between the 3rd and 7th of the scale and 4th and 7th of the scale (although the 3rd and 7th were the only ones that worked inversed as welll)).

Am I correct?

No. The tab would be the same - a tritone is the same interval no matter what.

The tritone occurs between the 4th and 7th degrees of the Major scale, and the 3rd and 7th degrees of the Mixolydian scale.

[Jim Carr]

interval terms...

diminished 5th = augmented 4th = triTONE = 3 whole-steps = 6 half-steps...

Most say "tritone," not "trinote." I am unfamiliar with the term "trinote."
Important->Learn to sing all intervals and identify them when heard.

google says:

http://www.musicalintervalstutor.info/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(music)

[62bass]

Originally Posted by Jim Carr

interval terms...

diminished 5th = augmented 4th = triTONE = 3 whole-steps = 6 half-steps...

Most say "tritone," not "trinote." I am unfamiliar with the term "trinote."
Important->Learn to sing all intervals and identify them when heard.

google says:

http://www.musicalintervalstutor.info/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_(music)

The real jazz pros don't call it a tritone. They call it a flat 5. Tritone came into use when the teaching business got taken over by young guys who didn't truly understand music theory.

[phxlbrmpf]

Also try using the b9, metal guys use it all the time even if it's not part of the scale, it can sound very dissonant and "evil".
I also don't think the blues scale sounds very metal-ish, modern metal acts seem to use the Aeolian (the standard minor scale) or Phrygian scales instead.

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by 62bass

The real jazz pros don't call it a tritone. They call it a flat 5. Tritone came into use when the teaching business got taken over by young guys who didn't truly understand music theory.

Actually, both terms are used interchangeably. Tritone is most often used when talking about substitutions as well.

[phxlbrmpf]

I can see where 62bass is coming from, though, the term "tritone" itself refers to the interval (tritone = three whole steps), not to the function of a note as a part of a scale.

[Pacman]

Well, I've been playing jazz for a long time, as a "real pro" and can tell you that both terms are used.

[Grimlock]

Originally Posted by phxlbrmpf

Also try using the b9, metal guys use it all the time even if it's not part of the scale, it can sound very dissonant and "evil".
I also don't think the blues scale sounds very metal-ish, modern metal acts seem to use the Aeolian (the standard minor scale) or Phrygian scales instead.

Don't forget the Locrian mode. It's also got a b9 (I thought it was a m2, though)

Just wondering, Pacman, if you knew something about this particular chord... I'm only mentioning it because this particular "thing" has a tritone, and it seems in line with this thread.

There's this chord I remember reading about that used 4 notes: I - iii - bv - VI (For example: A - C - Eb - Gb).

It's a cool chord, because it's Root (A) +3 semitones (C) +3 semitones (Eb) +3 semitones (Gb). Every inversion of this key ends up being the same chord with a different root, since all the notes in the chord are spaced evenly apart.

This chord doesn't fix into any mode of the Major key. Is it some Harmonic Minor phenomenon? What's the chord called?
Diminished 6th (It's a major 6th though... ) ?

I remember reading something about Yngwie Malmsteen liking this chord.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Grimlock

Don't forget the Locrian mode. It's also got a b9 (I thought it was a m2, though)

Just wondering, Pacman, if you knew something about this particular chord... I'm only mentioning it because this particular "thing" has a tritone, and it seems in line with this thread.

There's this chord I remember reading about that used 4 notes: I - iii - bv - VI (For example: A - C - Eb - Gb).

It's a cool chord, because it's Root (A) +3 semitones (C) +3 semitones (Eb) +3 semitones (Gb). Every inversion of this key ends up being the same chord with a different root, since all the notes in the chord are spaced evenly apart.

This chord doesn't fix into any mode of the Major key. Is it some Harmonic Minor phenomenon? What's the chord called?
Diminished 6th (It's a major 6th though... ) ?

I remember reading something about Yngwie Malmsteen liking this chord.

It's a diminished 7 chord. Technically, that 6 is not a 6 but a diminshed (double-flatted) 7.

[tbone0813]

So would a tritone substitution be playing a Gb over a C chord in the key of C?

[paulraphael]

Originally Posted by 62bass

The real jazz pros don't call it a tritone. They call it a flat 5. Tritone came into use when the teaching business got taken over by young guys who didn't truly understand music theory.

Not really true ... tritone is just a description of the interval. Flat five describes the note's role in a scale. The interval is always a tritone, but it's not always a flat five. in other harmonic contexts it's an augmented 4th, not a flat 5th ... but in either case it's a tritone.

you can also talk about moving up or down a tritone from any note. you can't move up or down a flat 5 from any note, because flat 5 refers to a specific position in the scale.

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by tbone0813

So would a tritone substitution be playing a Gb over a C chord in the key of C?

Well, yes, but no. It would be more like playing a Db7 instead of a G7 in the key of C.

It works because of the tritone in a Dominant 7 chord. G7 has a B and F in it (note that they're the 3rd and 7th, respectively). A Db7 has a Cb (B) and F in it (here, they're the 7th and 3rd). In both chords, the 3rd and 7th resolve to the same notes - C, in the case of the B and the F resolves to E. Two out of three notes for the C chord.

[HeavyFingers]

Originally Posted by Pacman

The tritone occurs between the 4th and 7th degrees of the Major scale, and the 3rd and 7th degrees of the Mixolydian scale.

Um...unfortunetly I'm not up to par with all of the technical names of the scales and such, so could you dumb down Mixolydian for me? (is it a minor scale, blues scale, one of these scales with something added or taken away?)

Heh, Also does this mean that the tritone occurs between the 4th and 7th of the blues scale as well?

Thanks.

[Jazzin']

All it is is just three tones. So six semitones. And it's always a six-semitone interval.

[tbone0813]

Let me start by saying I'm sure I'm making this more complicated than it is, but I really need to understand this though.

Originally Posted by Pacman

...It would be more like playing a Db7 instead of a G7 in the key of C.

It works because of the tritone in a Dominant 7 chord. G7 has a B and F in it (note that they're the 3rd and 7th, respectively). A Db7 has a Cb (B) and F in it (here, they're the 7th and 3rd).

OK. The Db7 is a tritone away from G7, and both share the B & F in their respective chords which makes it OK to use the Db7 instead of the G7 in the key of C. I understand that part.

Originally Posted by Pacman

...In both chords, the 3rd and 7th resolve to the same notes - C, in the case of the B and the F resolves to E. Two out of three notes for the C chord.

Why do the 3rd & 7th resolve to the same note-C, and what resolves to the E? I thought the 3rd & 7th (B & F) resolve to the C.